As usual the secret is more about the designer's knowledge and experience (it is reassuring the age of the Capitain stays important in this "hobby") than the brand itself ! And when the brand has more to see with a famous "artisan" than an Edge Fond, we have more luck to have a correct stuff ! The price here is not cheap though !
It was not certainly not the easiest thing to do with such an old driver with certainly not the best harmonic distorsion pattern(believe it's a stock Great Plain Audio) with both non a sota horn and in the front of the driver for a correct phase... I mean with a passive filter !
I'm not experienced but surmise the best experienced designers could have an idea of the cabinet just with the datasheet of the main driver ! But sure the outside filter must be "Something" !
I surmise also the mid-bass to have more weight and subjective transcient than an OB... But again who knows ? So much designs today ! Few money and time for most of us to try them all !
It was not certainly not the easiest thing to do with such an old driver with certainly not the best harmonic distorsion pattern(believe it's a stock Great Plain Audio) with both non a sota horn and in the front of the driver for a correct phase... I mean with a passive filter !
I'm not experienced but surmise the best experienced designers could have an idea of the cabinet just with the datasheet of the main driver ! But sure the outside filter must be "Something" !
I surmise also the mid-bass to have more weight and subjective transcient than an OB... But again who knows ? So much designs today ! Few money and time for most of us to try them all !
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A lot of response here. That`s really cool
OK if I go back to the wooden horns?
*I guess the ONKEN cabinet will be built , I`m not sure if they will be built in MDF or birch plywood. I can't make up my mind about that.
**I have some 18mm birch plywood that I have no use for at the moment.
This means that I can start quite quickly to build the Yuchi 290 wooden horns!
***I will try to draw the horn digitally first.
- Will keep you posted !
OK if I go back to the wooden horns?
*I guess the ONKEN cabinet will be built , I`m not sure if they will be built in MDF or birch plywood. I can't make up my mind about that.
**I have some 18mm birch plywood that I have no use for at the moment.
This means that I can start quite quickly to build the Yuchi 290 wooden horns!
***I will try to draw the horn digitally first.
- Will keep you posted !
About the wood : Untitled Document (from la Revue de l'Audiophile : http://www.ispra.net/audio/Onken/Audiophile_n2_dec1977/articulo-hiraga01.html)
Also from a Philippe Viboud who worked in la Revue de l'Audiophile and in La revue du son with Jean Hiraga...
http://www.asrr.org/biblioteca/Revue Audiophile/FICHIERS/26/ONKEN/ONKEN.html , some advices not only good for the 416 !
PlyWood seems better !
a little old, but at least genuine !
Hope this helps (with Google translate !)
PS : bonus about the genuine horns in an Onken like cabinet ? http://www.asrr.org/biblioteca/Revue Audiophile/FICHIERS/32/ONKEN/ONKEN.html
Also from a Philippe Viboud who worked in la Revue de l'Audiophile and in La revue du son with Jean Hiraga...
http://www.asrr.org/biblioteca/Revue Audiophile/FICHIERS/26/ONKEN/ONKEN.html , some advices not only good for the 416 !
PlyWood seems better !
a little old, but at least genuine !
Hope this helps (with Google translate !)
PS : bonus about the genuine horns in an Onken like cabinet ? http://www.asrr.org/biblioteca/Revue Audiophile/FICHIERS/32/ONKEN/ONKEN.html
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There are plenty of self-proclaimed wizards in hi-fi design. Secrecy is often used to protect that magical image. It seems people still want to have wizards and magicians at the controls, even in this late century.
Jean Hiraga is not one of these fakers. He does the work. He is a serious person and careful experimenter. A few minutes of watching him in action shows this.
Still, even though he didn't get there by magical techniques, that 604 speaker sounded like magic to me. Excellent job!
But I wish he would send me the plans!
Jean Hiraga is not one of these fakers. He does the work. He is a serious person and careful experimenter. A few minutes of watching him in action shows this.
Still, even though he didn't get there by magical techniques, that 604 speaker sounded like magic to me. Excellent job!
But I wish he would send me the plans!
And no more luck to have it even if asked in french or Japaneese (Hiraga is both by his parents!)
Yeap agree, that's why I follow the work of the oldest experienced like Hiraga, Papa Pass, Gerhardt... and some fellows here with more or less a long experience as it has Nothing to see with black magic but knowledge and experience for the best musical trade offs !
Hard to choose the way to go as many schools... My choice would be to go for a real mid-bass without the hassole of a mid-bass huge horn for the dedicated compression driver for it...
That's why I lurk here (and hopefully hope to be not too much OT) and will follow the OP with interrest !
(Hiraga is both by his parents!) Yeap agree, that's why I follow the work of the oldest experienced like Hiraga, Papa Pass, Gerhardt... and some fellows here with more or less a long experience as it has Nothing to see with black magic but knowledge and experience for the best musical trade offs !
Hard to choose the way to go as many schools... My choice would be to go for a real mid-bass without the hassole of a mid-bass huge horn for the dedicated compression driver for it...
That's why I lurk here (and hopefully hope to be not too much OT) and will follow the OP with interrest !
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Point source 604 would my choice if listening distance is under 12'. If more than that, a seperate horn on top would have more potential and not strain the crossover areas of each driver. 515 and 802 have plenty of overlap to play with in crossover design. Regarding that 604 box, it looks very nice. I would build it, then play with different porting on the bottom. Make a removable bottom plate for testing. Havn't had much luck with slot ports, but a large flared bottom firing port with feet would likely work well...or rear port if corner loading.
Do you mean green tea is better ? Btw aksed some questions to JG about his Envie wide band driver and his MPL speaker thread... (I look twice when it comes to have less wood work !)Beware to the cigarettes, can give you an "odieux" physique (sorry my french) !
Beware to the papyruss cone as well... ? (not saying those "connes de ce papi russe !" But this is an another story from Ibiza!)
Sorry for the OT, time to go back to the thread : 604 Altec for a good bass and mid-bass in a wood cabinet !
Happy to see and read more thread with this driver as usually it's all about the 416 !
Ah, the french reseller of GPA seems to prefer by far the laminated Oukoumé wood to the birch ply wood !
L'enceinte Nissotté - 4U music
L'enceinte Nissotté - 4U music
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I just looked up Oukoumé and it said this on Wikipedia:
"It is a weak wood with low decay resistance, moderate dimensional stability and slightly carcinogenic."
We're all gonna die someday, right?
In some cultures, and I count French and Japanese here, designers say "Do it exactly the way I say for best results." And the builders usually follow the suggested proven path or try to.
On the other hand, Americans usually insist on doing it their own "better" way! Even if the original proposal makes good sense. Look around DiyA for a million examples.
Oukoumé plywood sounds interesting. Light stuff. I never heard of it in the USA
You mean better for an after life cabinet for human ! The slighty carcinogenic is good to be twice sure of the result ....
Seems to be an inexpensive ply wood which can be often seen here !
But maybe it's just a blabla as the writter doesn't talk of the thickness... or does he take the same thickness seen in the Altec Shematic ?
Well, in an other way I don't see what can be new with all the expériences made by americans and japoneeses with Altecs' drivers... And mainly with my little understanding some designer prefer a less thick ply wood (around 19 mm/0.75") for a higher resonance more in the mid Spectrum than in the bass ! Ah ?! IIRC it was a britain speaker brand which uses Vifa mids in D'Apolitto MTM.
Not sure it is so good for heavy Altec ! I would bet for beech ply wood said to be very good with an E MPs of 15 000 (twice than the MDF planned by the OP) and good internal loss (0.1 vs 0.05 with MDF). Some others says : baltic ply wood, etc, etc !
But, But... reading Pano fellow at Lynn Olson thread, it seems not make a big difference as far the cabinet is well brassed and rigid !
Reading the links I given, the Onken construction seems hard and expensive. While a 808 Altec like design (dixit Pano...) could sound a little bit more natural with 416 and 515. 806 not talked a lot !
J. Gerardht likes a strong and solid Panzersomething ply wood made in germany Under patent... (seen at MPL thread)... but not sure despite it's a ply maminated wood its internal loss are big enough (=too solid/strong?) !
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Yes, it is all incredibly confusing.
If somebody builds XXX out of YYY and he likes it, then it is THE ONLY WAY.
As I said earlier, I wanted birch Onkens but settled for 1" MDF and I was extremely happy with that cabinet for 15 years! I could not have loved it more if it was made from the tree that Adam and Eve picked the apple in the Garden of Eden.
There are many ways, and some may be better, but so what if you are happy?
My feeling is that the Onken Box like the VOT box has large panels so you have to do something to deal with the vibrations. The Onken is a bass cabinet and a 15"woofer sets up some strong forces.
I am listening to a pr of Altec 755A right now as I type in 1/2" (13mm) Baltic birch ply cabinets. If I strike it, it sounds like a drum but I do not hear much wood in the music. I believe that the light box gives the music more life. I am very happy with these boxes.
It may be important to follow the picture in your head, because if you don't you may always wonder what happened if you did. I am convinced by experience that many of these things don't matter all that much, but I still follow the pictures in my head.
I think this is how we are wired.
If things don't work out as planned, I can always blame something else.
If somebody builds XXX out of YYY and he likes it, then it is THE ONLY WAY.
As I said earlier, I wanted birch Onkens but settled for 1" MDF and I was extremely happy with that cabinet for 15 years! I could not have loved it more if it was made from the tree that Adam and Eve picked the apple in the Garden of Eden.
There are many ways, and some may be better, but so what if you are happy?
My feeling is that the Onken Box like the VOT box has large panels so you have to do something to deal with the vibrations. The Onken is a bass cabinet and a 15"woofer sets up some strong forces.
I am listening to a pr of Altec 755A right now as I type in 1/2" (13mm) Baltic birch ply cabinets. If I strike it, it sounds like a drum but I do not hear much wood in the music. I believe that the light box gives the music more life. I am very happy with these boxes.
It may be important to follow the picture in your head, because if you don't you may always wonder what happened if you did. I am convinced by experience that many of these things don't matter all that much, but I still follow the pictures in my head.
I think this is how we are wired.
If things don't work out as planned, I can always blame something else.
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what is that rigid looking fiberglass material in your 755A cabinet ? http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/25223/755a2.jpg
How the heck did you find that?
I'm not using that original Altec 618 cabinet. That one was a bit too resonant for me. I felt like I needed more damping. It sounded cool but a bit messy.
Rather than screw up a desirable vintage item adding damping or braces, I sold them and got a pair built out of 1/2" BB with a 5/8" front baffle. I use paper based damping material...KimPak, on the interior sides of the box.
The orange stuff is rigid fiberglass board. I think it was used in oven doors. fireplaces, etc. You can still buy rigid rock wool panels that are intended for similar apps.
Anyway, that project is very different situation from an Altec bass cabinet. I'd want to go with stiffer,thicker material for a 15" woofer.
The internal decision is based on whether one believes in "good resonances" or is looking for a vibrational black hole. For me, the question is more textured than a simple yes/no and depends on the application.
I'm not using that original Altec 618 cabinet. That one was a bit too resonant for me. I felt like I needed more damping. It sounded cool but a bit messy.
Rather than screw up a desirable vintage item adding damping or braces, I sold them and got a pair built out of 1/2" BB with a 5/8" front baffle. I use paper based damping material...KimPak, on the interior sides of the box.
The orange stuff is rigid fiberglass board. I think it was used in oven doors. fireplaces, etc. You can still buy rigid rock wool panels that are intended for similar apps.
Anyway, that project is very different situation from an Altec bass cabinet. I'd want to go with stiffer,thicker material for a 15" woofer.
The internal decision is based on whether one believes in "good resonances" or is looking for a vibrational black hole. For me, the question is more textured than a simple yes/no and depends on the application.
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The modern day fiberglass insulation = is OC 703 acoustic ductboard that Altec used in more times: Owens Corning Commercial - Fiberglas? 700 Series Insulation
If it is roxul [rock wool], then some comparison info: Owens Corning 703 vs. Mineral Wool Acoustic Panels | ATS Acoustics
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
GM
If it is roxul [rock wool], then some comparison info: Owens Corning 703 vs. Mineral Wool Acoustic Panels | ATS Acoustics
http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm
GM
Hey GM,
Thanks for that info! I intended to do that research but never got around to it. I want some of this material to use behind 18" WE style open baffle woofers to catch the backwave.
I did not realize that it was an acoustic product from the get go. I saw something like this stuff in the walls of old refrigerators where I thought it was thermal but could have been acoustic...or both! Two birds with one stone (rock wool). Why not?
The old Altec cab used pink fibreglass.
Might not be a bad idea to hang a slice of that stuff behind an Onken woofer!
Thanks for that info! I intended to do that research but never got around to it. I want some of this material to use behind 18" WE style open baffle woofers to catch the backwave.
I did not realize that it was an acoustic product from the get go. I saw something like this stuff in the walls of old refrigerators where I thought it was thermal but could have been acoustic...or both! Two birds with one stone (rock wool). Why not?
The old Altec cab used pink fibreglass.
Might not be a bad idea to hang a slice of that stuff behind an Onken woofer!
You're welcome! Yes, Altec would use plain wall insulation when required and/or as a cost reduction, but the rigid kind used in fridges, etc., was preferred at least as far back as the '50s based on it being used in some early 820 cabs to damp its horn flares and unique sloped wedge 'triangle filter' over its multiple hole bottom vent system; and yes, it's a 'one stop shop' insulation for both thermal and acoustical apps, though some require a [thermal barrier] foil backing on one or both sides such as for damping the underside of a large electrical motor's casing or a vehicle's hood.
Right, ideally we want an air barrier between the driver and any reflective surfaces, so hanging 'blankets' of acousti-stuff or un-backed fiberglass wall insulation or similar; or diagonally placed rigid panel insulation is a good plan.
GM
Right, ideally we want an air barrier between the driver and any reflective surfaces, so hanging 'blankets' of acousti-stuff or un-backed fiberglass wall insulation or similar; or diagonally placed rigid panel insulation is a good plan.
GM
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The ERPI manuals for some of the open baffles Western Electric used in theater setups used an acoustical panel of some sort to prevent a reflection off of the back wall and floor.
This strikes me as a good history lesson for OB fans. Openness is cool but I am not so sure that reflections are your friend and, in some setups. definitely your enemy.
I'm thinking some of that fiberglass panel would be just the ticket!
Just when your wife got used to the huge open baffles....
This strikes me as a good history lesson for OB fans. Openness is cool but I am not so sure that reflections are your friend and, in some setups. definitely your enemy.
I'm thinking some of that fiberglass panel would be just the ticket!
Just when your wife got used to the huge open baffles....
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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