Unless it is interconnects your money probably better spent on other items
Lowther offers Silver voice coils as an option. They are recommended when they want the additional weight of the silver to damp the travel - I have never seen them market them as a "quality of sound" as in it sounds better with silver voice coils.
I have silver wires. I am a believer that silver wire makes a difference in interconnects that is pretty easily discernable.
However, cabling to speakers is very system dependent. Silver may make a number of speakers sound bright - There are just too many variables to ensure any decent cost benefit ratio
I don't want to sell the silver speaker wire I have, but I doubt if I would buy it again. The difference was noticeable with my previous speakers but less so with my current setup.
Cabling is so much of a crap shoot that you're better to just decide on a type of standard cabling that meets your needs.
You'll get more for your money if you put the money into better components for the crossover, better drivers, etc.
Regards
Ken L
PS you will not be able to hear the difference in cabling of any sort unless/untill your whole system is high resolution.
PPS from one twit to another _big grin_
Theli said:
Lowther offers Silver voice coils as an option. They are recommended when they want the additional weight of the silver to damp the travel - I have never seen them market them as a "quality of sound" as in it sounds better with silver voice coils.
I have silver wires. I am a believer that silver wire makes a difference in interconnects that is pretty easily discernable.
However, cabling to speakers is very system dependent. Silver may make a number of speakers sound bright - There are just too many variables to ensure any decent cost benefit ratio
I don't want to sell the silver speaker wire I have, but I doubt if I would buy it again. The difference was noticeable with my previous speakers but less so with my current setup.
Cabling is so much of a crap shoot that you're better to just decide on a type of standard cabling that meets your needs.
You'll get more for your money if you put the money into better components for the crossover, better drivers, etc.
Regards
Ken L
PS you will not be able to hear the difference in cabling of any sort unless/untill your whole system is high resolution.
PPS from one twit to another _big grin_
If anyone bothered to look up the resistivity of copper, and compared it to the resistivity of silver, they would see just how small the difference is. Ahh, but it's not about the resistance people say, it's tiny differences in the parasitic capacitance and inductance of the wires. Tell me one I haven't heard... For anyone to hear the difference between silver and copper in any of the usual audio wiring, you would have to have impossibly sensitive and accurate hearing, and at the same time be completely deaf to all the other relative trashing that the audio signal endures between the PCM and your ears.
CM
CM
I'm with CeramicMan,
Unless you have THE best drivers money can buy, I think internal silver wire is not really in your interest. Spend the most money on your drivers and XO and wire the inside with 16ga lamp cord. Concentrating on your soldering job can have as much an effect as some fancy dancy wire that runs a max of 3 or 4 feet.
The purists might argue, but to me internal silver wiring is like putting silver plated wheels on a beater car.
Spend more on the engine, not the accessories.
Happy Cranking,
Cal
Unless you have THE best drivers money can buy, I think internal silver wire is not really in your interest. Spend the most money on your drivers and XO and wire the inside with 16ga lamp cord. Concentrating on your soldering job can have as much an effect as some fancy dancy wire that runs a max of 3 or 4 feet.
The purists might argue, but to me internal silver wiring is like putting silver plated wheels on a beater car.
Spend more on the engine, not the accessories.
Happy Cranking,
Cal
CeramicMan said:
Yep, not much difference in conductivity, although I still bought silver hookup wire for the internal wiring of my amplifier. For me, when it comes down to it, I can't think of a better use of this metal than audio applications.
http://www.pmillett.addr.com/images/ax_wire.pdf
JF
The difference is in the sound, even few inches make a difference. It depends on a system, and not always silver wire brings improvement. Sometimes, indeed, the system may sound too bright, but usually it sounds better.
Best is to try and then say...
PS: IIRC, there was a small 2-way speaker from B&W (Signature edition) that had coils (including drivers), caps and all the wire made of silver. This was John Atkinson reference speaker for a while.
Best is to try and then say...
PS: IIRC, there was a small 2-way speaker from B&W (Signature edition) that had coils (including drivers), caps and all the wire made of silver. This was John Atkinson reference speaker for a while.
The choice of material in the voice coil affects the efficiency of the driver, and it can be shown that if the mass of the coil dominates the total mass, the efficiency is proportional to
1/(resistivity*density) The following mini-table shows that silver is slightly worse than copper which is quite a lot worse than aluminium.
Dens Res 1/Product
Cu 8920 1.7e-8 6600
Ag 10490 1.6e-8 6000
Al 2700 2.65e-8 14000
So, it appears to be a bad choice to use silver, apart from marketing reasons...
1/(resistivity*density) The following mini-table shows that silver is slightly worse than copper which is quite a lot worse than aluminium.
Dens Res 1/Product
Cu 8920 1.7e-8 6600
Ag 10490 1.6e-8 6000
Al 2700 2.65e-8 14000
So, it appears to be a bad choice to use silver, apart from marketing reasons...
johnferrier said:
One thing that really annoys me about that article is the statement:
"As much as engineers and scientists hate to admit it, there are things that can be heard but not be measured"
The way to MEASURE such effects scientifically is through listening tests, which are properly set up (double blind etc). Scientific methods do not nessecarily involve instruments or computers. There is nothing strange to it, and such a listening tests need not to interfere with the wishes of the listeners with regard to the listening situation.
To me a statistically significant result is such a test is needed to say that "silver can be heard", otherwise the statement is just an opinion not worth very much.
Ag will not work in all situations and be the end all. My speakers hate Ag,but my gear loves Ag IC's.
Experiment!
www.nearsota.com
Experiment!
www.nearsota.com
NEAR_SOTA said:
You said it more succintly than I
the higher the resolution and the higher the effeciency the more easily it can be heard.
My system has gone through a number of changes in recent years - in one of those iterations, I had lost detail and the "magic" wasn't there as much. I kept trying to figure out what gone wrong -Was pulling my hair out - then realized when I redid the setup, I put the silver interconnects only between sources and the Pre - pulled a pair out and put them between the pre and the amp - voila! Everything was back.
For anyone who doesn't believe it is possible because it doesn't fit your preconceived ideas of how the world should be - I suggest you actually _try_ it.
Without question, the largest single improvement for dollar that I have ever gotten in my system was the addition of silver interconnects -
If that makes me a a twit, or that I "have impossibly sensitive and accurate hearing, and at the same time be completely deaf to all the other relative trashing that the audio signal endures" it is a little odd that my wife apparantly shares the same qualities.
My guess, is that most of the people who say there is no difference (or can be no difference) because of some psuedo- scientific reason _have never tried it_
If you _have_ tried it (interconnects) and have a high resolution system, and cannot hear the difference- I truly feel sorry for you.
I have seen this issue come up repeatedly in forums - so much and with so much negativety that I rarely respond anymore. I cannot help but wonder how many of these people making the negative statements have ever tried it and found that there was something they were unaware of that didn't make sense on the surface.
Many people that have _tried_ it, can hear a difference, and have posted to that effect. It is very uncommon to see a poster say I tried silver interconnects and could tell no difference. It is _very_ common to see posters say all sorts of reasons as to why it cannot work - oddly, their posts indicating how knowledgeable they are on the subject come from statements about inductance and capacitance and things they have _read_ somewhere and their theories _why_ , etc. but are lacking in details of their experiences.
I can tell Ceramic Man something he hasn't heard before- he's never _heard_ silver interconnects.
Regards
Ken L
From one "twit" to another _big grin_
Nope - that would definitely be getting out on a limb that I tried to keep the original poster from getting out on.
Is it possible? yes
Is it probable? no
Is it likely to be worth the cost? No
There is really no definitive answer until you try.
Bill, I won't even go so far as to say that my eight foot run of pure silver from the amps to the drivers is noticeable with my current setup.
I cannot readily hear the difference at this point in time. It has not been an issue to me that was worth the effort to do the necessary A/B and tell. I temporarily tried some cat5 for testing and left it on for a good while, when I finally got around to moving the silver over I couldn't tell any difference but I didn't do any specific blind testing. There may be a slight difference but if so, certainly not worth the cost. I've got the cable so I'm using it.
However, on a previous configuration I and my wife could tell the difference blind with the other one swapping cables. It was more detailed with the silver.
Silver interconnects are a different story. From comments of other posters who have _tried_ them, and from my own experiences in three different configurations - I would be surprised if most people could not readily hear the difference if the system is high resolution.
FWIW, I had a Chiro 5 Channel amp that I used for HT -It was a pretty good amp for HT but by no means would I call it high resolution. I had a 6 foot silver interconnect that I ran to the Center Channel. I couldn't hear any difference with the interconmect on the center so I cut it into two pieces and made another pair for an additional source when I got into SACD
There are no gaurantees here - if you look at my original post I attempted to steer the poster away from such usage, and commented to the effect that I didn't believe silver to be appropriate for a voice coil.
OTOH, for someone who hasn't tried it, to make the statement from conjecture that " For anyone to hear the difference between silver and copper in any of the usual audio wiring, you would have to have impossibly sensitive and accurate hearing, and at the same time be completely deaf to all the other relative trashing that the audio signal endures between the PCM and your ears"
He is clearly including in "usual audio wiring" interconnects. And he is incorrect in his assumptions.
If he had said "I tried it, and I can't hear a bit of difference" that is something else entirely.
Regards
Ken L
Bill Fitzpatrick said:
Nope - that would definitely be getting out on a limb that I tried to keep the original poster from getting out on.
Is it possible? yes
Is it probable? no
Is it likely to be worth the cost? No
There is really no definitive answer until you try.
Bill, I won't even go so far as to say that my eight foot run of pure silver from the amps to the drivers is noticeable with my current setup.
I cannot readily hear the difference at this point in time. It has not been an issue to me that was worth the effort to do the necessary A/B and tell. I temporarily tried some cat5 for testing and left it on for a good while, when I finally got around to moving the silver over I couldn't tell any difference but I didn't do any specific blind testing. There may be a slight difference but if so, certainly not worth the cost. I've got the cable so I'm using it.
However, on a previous configuration I and my wife could tell the difference blind with the other one swapping cables. It was more detailed with the silver.
Silver interconnects are a different story. From comments of other posters who have _tried_ them, and from my own experiences in three different configurations - I would be surprised if most people could not readily hear the difference if the system is high resolution.
FWIW, I had a Chiro 5 Channel amp that I used for HT -It was a pretty good amp for HT but by no means would I call it high resolution. I had a 6 foot silver interconnect that I ran to the Center Channel. I couldn't hear any difference with the interconmect on the center so I cut it into two pieces and made another pair for an additional source when I got into SACD
There are no gaurantees here - if you look at my original post I attempted to steer the poster away from such usage, and commented to the effect that I didn't believe silver to be appropriate for a voice coil.
OTOH, for someone who hasn't tried it, to make the statement from conjecture that " For anyone to hear the difference between silver and copper in any of the usual audio wiring, you would have to have impossibly sensitive and accurate hearing, and at the same time be completely deaf to all the other relative trashing that the audio signal endures between the PCM and your ears"
He is clearly including in "usual audio wiring" interconnects. And he is incorrect in his assumptions.
If he had said "I tried it, and I can't hear a bit of difference" that is something else entirely.
Regards
Ken L
Ken L said:
Ken L said:
Well, I am "on the other side" and I wonder why noone has ever managed to PROOVE that there is a difference with scientific methods. There ARE ways of performing listening tests scientifically, but people FAIL to hear cables as soon as they don't know what they are listening to.
Have YOU tried to make a DOUBLE-BLIND test with the cables?
do you guys only listen to speakers that someone has _proved_ are the best?
Do you folks only listen to speakers that have been _proved_ the best by scientific double blind testing?
I might think so from your comments. We all hear things differently and double blind testing in itself has fallen out of favor with many.
However, I will attempt to make an informed response from my experience.
FWIW, I was a doubter that became a convert.
Certainly - in my own humble manner
I purchased one pair of interconnects. With my wife changing cables, replaying the same tracks, without knowing which one she was hooking up, or whether or not she was in fact even changing cables between selections, it was pretty easy to tell the difference - and the same when I changed interconnects around while she was listening. This procedure is probably not scientific enough to satisfy doubters, but I don't have access to a labrotory and it was sufficient for me.
Then I bought more interconnects. On the strength of that experience I bought the speaker cable while being warned by the seller that the differences are more subtle and at times negative -
I have no need or desire to _prove_ anything to you or anyone else.
I contributed in a sincere response to a poster that had a sincere question. I had _experience_ on the subject. It is difficult for me to understand why anyone thinks they have such great technical knowledge that they can unhesitatingly question the accuracy of statements of individuals who have _tried_ .
The reason that I frequently do not respond to such threads is because they degenerate into such as this has.
If you wish to not believe so and doubt it, that is fine.
However, you should make it clear in your _authoritative_ negative posts that you have never actually _tried_ it.
I will take the liberty of repeating a previous comment that it is highly unusual for a poster who has _tried_ silver interconnects to say they are unable to tell the difference, while there are quite a number who have _tried_ them and believe in them.
In keeping with the fact that I really don't care if you now or never own such a thing, I will make no further posts to this thread.
I sincerely wish everyone a good day _big brin_
Best regards
Ken L
Do you folks only listen to speakers that have been _proved_ the best by scientific double blind testing?
I might think so from your comments. We all hear things differently and double blind testing in itself has fallen out of favor with many.
However, I will attempt to make an informed response from my experience.
FWIW, I was a doubter that became a convert.
Svante said:
Certainly - in my own humble manner
I purchased one pair of interconnects. With my wife changing cables, replaying the same tracks, without knowing which one she was hooking up, or whether or not she was in fact even changing cables between selections, it was pretty easy to tell the difference - and the same when I changed interconnects around while she was listening. This procedure is probably not scientific enough to satisfy doubters, but I don't have access to a labrotory and it was sufficient for me.
Then I bought more interconnects. On the strength of that experience I bought the speaker cable while being warned by the seller that the differences are more subtle and at times negative -
I have no need or desire to _prove_ anything to you or anyone else.
I contributed in a sincere response to a poster that had a sincere question. I had _experience_ on the subject. It is difficult for me to understand why anyone thinks they have such great technical knowledge that they can unhesitatingly question the accuracy of statements of individuals who have _tried_ .
The reason that I frequently do not respond to such threads is because they degenerate into such as this has.
If you wish to not believe so and doubt it, that is fine.
However, you should make it clear in your _authoritative_ negative posts that you have never actually _tried_ it.
I will take the liberty of repeating a previous comment that it is highly unusual for a poster who has _tried_ silver interconnects to say they are unable to tell the difference, while there are quite a number who have _tried_ them and believe in them.
In keeping with the fact that I really don't care if you now or never own such a thing, I will make no further posts to this thread.
I sincerely wish everyone a good day _big brin_
Best regards
Ken L
Ok, Ken L, I am sorry, when I read my own post, the tone wasn't quite what I wanted. Darn, I should learn to avoid uppercase...
I prepared a long response to your post but realise that it would do no good, so I'll skip it. I have been called authoritative before, in fora like this. I can only explain it with my scientific background, that my main contact with the english language is via a scientific community, and also maybe on that I teach acoustics.
I participate in discussions like these because I have a genuine interest in sound and loudspeaker building, to educate myself and possibly to contribute to others on occasions and also because I enjoy the dicussions. Sometimes I find myself stepping on toes I did not intend to. I am sorry about that.
I appreciate that you shared your experience with the original poster, I overlooked that writing my previous post, possibly blinded by science.
I do however think that the audio field needs more proof and less thinking. I'd love to participate in a study on cables, but I don't think I should be the first choice as the listener, being the critisist I am. Maybe, some day I will.
A sincere good day to you too (really).
/Svante
I prepared a long response to your post but realise that it would do no good, so I'll skip it. I have been called authoritative before, in fora like this. I can only explain it with my scientific background, that my main contact with the english language is via a scientific community, and also maybe on that I teach acoustics.
I participate in discussions like these because I have a genuine interest in sound and loudspeaker building, to educate myself and possibly to contribute to others on occasions and also because I enjoy the dicussions. Sometimes I find myself stepping on toes I did not intend to. I am sorry about that.
I appreciate that you shared your experience with the original poster, I overlooked that writing my previous post, possibly blinded by science.
I do however think that the audio field needs more proof and less thinking. I'd love to participate in a study on cables, but I don't think I should be the first choice as the listener, being the critisist I am. Maybe, some day I will.
A sincere good day to you too (really).
/Svante
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