Silver wire?

[Magura]

Frank, have you ever measured the capacitance of silver VS. copper??

Silver plated copper sure didnt do me no good, but it sure was different....and that was at the time being pretty much what i wanted to see if it was or not.


Magura

 

[fdegrove]

Hi,

Frank, have you ever measured the capacitance of silver VS. copper??

Do you really mean capacitance? A nude piece of wire doesn't have any but you probably mean resistance.

If the latter is what you mean then no, why should I?
It is well established that Ag has about 7% less resistance per unit compared to Cu.

To me that's not the reason why it would sound better than say copper anyway although it can be an advantage in some applications.

Cheers,

 

[Magura]

I know a nude piece of wire dosnt have any capacitance.....and when you point it out...i too know that capacitance of speaker cables are due to their construction


Magura

 

[Steve Eddy]

No more a leap as to assume that since both copper and silver are metals they therefore must sound the same, I reckon.

Who's making that assumption?

Lots of peole have been using silver wires in audio both in a private environment as in a commercial one for well over a decade now.

Sure. So? Lots of people have been doing and using lots of things for well over a decade now. That doesn't establish actual audibility.

When I first switched over to silver the difference was nothing short of incredible and let me tell you, that system was well into the megabuck high-end league already.

Great. But agian, so? That doesn't establish actual audibility either.

In short, the sliver cables stayed and will always remain there unless something substantially better shows up.

Again, great. And yet again, so?

Why silver sounds the way it does?
I really wouldn't know and quite frankly I don't think I would enjoy it more if I did, or would I?

No idea. Perhaps not.

To most people it often seems their logic to think that the latest change is at fault when something doesn't sound quite right.
They also can't believe that that expensive amp doesn't feel too happy in their set-up either...
The human mind is quite a tricky thing to handle...

Yes, it is.

And until that human mind and all its tricks can be ruled out, one can't come to any meaningful conclusions as to the cause(s) of the subjective differences we perceive.

se

 

[fdegrove]

Hi,

I know a nude piece of wire dosnt have any capacitance.....

O.K. but what was the question than?

Cheers,

 

[fdegrove]

Hi,

I`ve read some topics here about silver wire being used on speaker, internally at least. If the internal wires are silver, what about the voice coils? And the wires form the amp to the speaker connections are usually copper, no? So...any gain would be lost or am I wrong?

This is post #1.

That doesn't establish actual audibility.

If you feel so compelled about establishing audibility why not organise something for yourself locally?

Nobody here can establish it for you, you know.

Me, I don't need to be convinced. I read it in yesterdays' newspaper already.

Cheers,

 

[Magura]

Hi,



O.K. but what was the question than?

Cheers,

As you just pointed out to me...there was no question


Magura

 

[Steve Eddy]

If you feel so compelled about establishing audibility why not organise something for yourself locally?

Huh? I'm not the one who feels so compelled about establishing audibility.

Those who feel so compelled about establishing audibility are those who keep making claims of audibility. Those who aren't content to simply share their subjective experiences but who leap to conclusions and subsequently attempt to pass off their subjective experiences as objective fact.

They're the ones who feel so compelled about establishing audibility. Not me.

I'm simply pointing out that sighted, uncontrolled subjective experience doesn't establish audibility.

se

 

[Peter Daniel]

Ok Frank...please spill the beans.

What is it that makes the sound change when using silver as i described?

I have heard of others later with the same experience.

I think to answer that queastion we should be looking at what really occurs when wire is conducting. It's not about resisistance and capacitance only, but about what really happens to all those electrons on their way from one binding post to another. Anybody can shed more light?

 

[fdegrove]

Hi,

This one's actually breaking down the crystals:

Just for the fun of it:

ELECTROMIGRAINE.

Ciao,

PS: Here's the complete page for those not having a headache yet:

http://www.imo.luc.ac.be/research_activities/ecr/electromigration.html

 

[Steve Eddy]

I think to answer that queastion we should be looking at what really occurs when wire is conducting. It's not about resisistance and capacitance only, but about what really happens to all those electrons on their way from one binding post to another. Anybody can shed more light?

Well, first, the electrons don't really travel from one binding post to another any more than air molecules travel from my mouth to your ear if I'm speaking to you.

It's not as if the electrons are just sitting around doing nothing waiting for a signal to impinge upon them. In the absence of a signal, the electrons are being jostled about in all directions due to interactions with lattice vibrations from the thermal energy in the wire.

So whatever may be going on, it's going to be buried in the thermal noise of the wire itself.

se

 

[Peter Daniel]

Well, for lack of any other reference at the moment, I checked with "The New York Public Library Science Desk Reference" and this is how electric current is explained there:

"An electric current consists of charged particles-most often electrons-moving through a conductor. The electrons in some atoms, such as copper or aluminum, are free to move and to jump from one atom to another".

And that's how I remeber it from my physics classes. But it was at least 25 years ago and I understand that there is more to it than that. So what is really going on inside a conductor?

 

[Notorious]

In general silver because of it's lower resistance is welcome in phono stages... In speaker connection?... Well how rich are you?? Try 10 gauge coper wire and than same in silver... Better still.. Do the "blind test" than you tell me what you hear??? Really courious...
Silver wire have lower resistance compared to the same gauge of copper wire, but it will cost much more. Question is do you really hear the difference??? And is it worth it..

 

[fdegrove]

Hi,

Question is do you really hear the difference??? And is it worth it..

Well I surely do...Worth it? You betcha...

What makes you think it's expensive?
In Holland, check AE. They have nude silver wire, teflon tubing and you're all set for a price way below any fancy pancy speakerwire or I/C.
A set of good quality plugs will quite likely cost alot more than the silver wire alone.

Cheers,

AE-EUROPE

 

[Steve Eddy]

Well, for lack of any other reference at the moment, I checked with "The New York Public Library Science Desk Reference" and this is how electric current is explained there:

"An electric current consists of charged particles-most often electrons-moving through a conductor. The electrons in some atoms, such as copper or aluminum, are free to move and to jump from one atom to another".

And that's how I remeber it from my physics classes. But it was at least 25 years ago and I understand that there is more to it than that. So what is really going on inside a conductor?

How "really" do you want to get?

se

 

[Steve Eddy]

Here's some basics:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/fermi.html#c1

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/ohmmic.html#c2

se

 

[Peter Daniel]

How "really" do you want to get?

se

At least to get the idea how it really works and to see if material's structure might be affecting anything. People always talk about resistance, gauge and capacity, but what about the way the conductor is built itself, you know, the subatomic level

 

[Steve Eddy]

At least to get the idea how it really works and to see if material's structure might be affecting anything. People always talk about resistance, gauge and capacity, but what about the way the conductor is built itself, you know, the subatomic level

Well, like I said, anything going on at the subatomic level is going to be buried in the thermal noise of the wire, which will be buried in the noise of the active sources in the system, which will be buried in the ambient noise of the listening room.

So unless you're wanting to know just for academic purposes, I don't see much point in the exercise.

se

 

[johnferrier]

O.K. but what was the question than?

Frank,

I think the question of you measuring capacitance of silver versus copper came up because you wrote:

BTW, the frequency response CAN be measured and NO they're not the same.
Not that that tells the whole story anyway....

The possibility of you knowing something about the difference in capacitance of the two types of cables came to my mind as well. Did you have something other than capacitance in mind that would change the freq. response?


JF

 

[Bestspeaker]

silver vire?

the sound of the cables, the point is:
each of us has experience on that that has personally felt, who submits only to the measures to explain as this is possible it doubts of that/the differences that others say to feel.

To feel small variations and/or tones introduced by the change of a cable and/or other component, has to satisfy some important requisite:

A) our environment of coupled listening to our speakers has to have an answer in regular frequency without exaltations and/or cancellations,
b) equipement of high resolution quality able to reveal small tones.

c) sensibility = trained ear and open mind without preconceived, we don't owe to think first to the measure and then to the sound, otherwise we are not objective with ourselves, and we don't offer a contribution for the scientific search.

Then the fact not to feel a difference doesn't mean that nobody can feel this difference.
Our conditions of listening are different, our equipments are different, our ears/musical sensibility and habits of listening are different, this door to feel or not to feel any differences.

I would like to remember that also in computer science the importance of the covering is recognized / isolation of the cables, two identical cables as conductor and geometry are differentiated in performances and/or conductibility according to the type of insulator used in the covering.

I have experimented with cable for speakers cat 5 and also with cat 6 in various configurations, from a minimum of 2 up to 12 cables for speakers, length 2,5 meters.
the comparison has been made with a good cable by 35 Euro to the meter in copper, the comparison has clearly shown a loss of extension on the high frequencies and a loss than at least an octave on the low frequencies.

I experiment with cable of interconnection, length 1 meter.
A good vacum tube amps in class A, I have tried cables Silver and Copper beginning from 20 up to 700 Euro, but not felt anybody appreciable difference, naturally I have chosen a cable copper from 20 Euro.

The preamplifier (of more economic category) is revealed instead very sensitive to the type/model of cable of interconnection, and also to the cable of A.C.,
Currently use a cable in Silver for interconnection and cable in copper dressed silver for A.C.

The DAC is revealed very sensitive to the type of digital cable with the mechanics CD, currently I use a cable in Silver.

My final conclusions are,
Every equipement Every cable Every speaker is different, when we connect them to us we don't establish any variations,
to this point we have to be able of to listen to her.

But if we don't feel difference, wants to say that in Our equipment they don't do difference.

Silver vire plays different from copper vire, the geometry and the material of isolation of the wire it changes the sound of the cable.