Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

S. Harsch XO
S. Harsch XO
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th April 2018, 01:41 AM   #601
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Bigun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Waterloo, ON or Herefordshire UK
S. Harsch XO
I would also prefer a simple passive XO so I don’t have to add more powered boxes. But passive Harsch looks challenging. Perhaps an XO around 800Hz would be an option for passive in terms of reasonable component values?
__________________
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed." Robert M Pirsig.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2018, 03:58 PM   #602
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
Got Foam?
diyAudio Member
 
xrk971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Metro DC area
S. Harsch XO
A 4th order low pass on a woofer is not hard, as well as a 2nd order high pass on the full-range/tweeter. The trick is to use very nominally smooth-flat response drivers to start with and then use mechanical displacement to effect the large time-delay required for the Harsch XO. So for passice Harsch XO, you will end up with a big stepped baffle speaker (or perhaps a horn for the tweeter that gives it the required setback). Ideally, DSP is the most effective route. For passive, it might actually be easier to do a good first order, so-called, 'transient perfect' XO. I put that in quotes as Byrtt is very particular about the word perfect. Maybe 'transient good' is more accurate

Indeed, I developed a passive Harsch XO for my PMC Clone TL speaker but I started with rather inexpensive drivers that were not very flat to start with and ended up requiring lots of filters (cost) to clean up. So start with a flat clean wide driver.

Low-Cost PMC-inspired TL Monitor with DC130A and DC28F

Here is the Passive XO (I never built it due to cost/complexity):
Click the image to open in full size.

Predicted step response:
Click the image to open in full size.

Speaker that the above passive XO was designed for. Now happily running Harsch on mini-DSP with active amplification:
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
__________________
XRKaudio https://www.etsy.com/shop/XRKAudio

Last edited by xrk971; 1st May 2018 at 04:05 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2018, 06:02 PM   #603
perceval is offline perceval  Taiwan
diyAudio Member
 
perceval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Taiwan
Click the image to open in full size.

Oh my, Byrtt,

I know you meant well, but showing a window like this is going to scare away anyone not having great knowledge of DSP and its power. I'm not sure I understand it myself!

I, too, don't understand why some are so reluctant to add DSP to their chain... Pure sound doesn't mean just connect + and - to a driver to me. Pure sound should be the whole experience, without driver or box coloration, the best balance that brings a smile to my face.

I've never heard a driver that didn't need a nudge here or there to sound the best of its abilities.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2018, 06:52 PM   #604
BYRTT is online now BYRTT  Denmark
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
S. Harsch XO
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
...Ideally, DSP is the most effective route. For passive, it might actually be easier to do a good first order, so-called, 'transient perfect' XO. I put that in quotes as Byrtt is very particular about the word perfect. Maybe 'transient good' is more accurate ...
See my name mentioned here for passive verse DSP no it might not be easier to do 1st order there, actually 1st order is probably the slopes that need most components and doing boost are actually not very easy or impossible do in passive world, each band should end be smooth and cover 10 octaves to be right else you add misunderstood non intended distortion so DSP power will probably real world get one closer to target and can call it a 1st order transient perfect system.

Easy example of the misunderstood non intended distortion is to look at your own simple passive 1st order implementation, below orange trace is your own measured step or square wave performance and green trace is my synthetic for how that declining curve as frq goes up response should have looked like, everything in square wave before 1,2mS is pure non intended distortion that in a proper executed 1st order system would not be there. If we seek stand out system sound yes its probably the way to go and can see with that nasty overshoot how its good to by ear judge and calibrate the right compensation cap as it was done over at ALPHA amp thread lately.
S. Harsch XO-5005-png

Its a bit over my head lately why it seems objective textbook target data seems had been dropped to get pleasing or stand out sound often mentioned as musicality/engagement/soundstage, aren't we just getting fooled in those subjective tests, what i mean here is after all we are listening to a recording so it got to somehow on a relative scale sound as a recording because microphone and various recording system devices have their natural limitations.

All that said suggest take a survive into a transient perfect isolated good acoustics headphone domain to discover how excess phase from higher orders than 1st order XO will sound like there, and think you will be surprised its so much more less a noticeable distortion than what one in real world acoustics environment will blame those XO's be responsible for and leading one to make wrong conclusions, on the contrary higher order help get drivers in their comfortable pass band zone normally leading to less distortion and also it helps one to hit exactly the target of what the XO topology dictates.
Attached Images
File Type: png 5005.PNG (112.0 KB, 48 views)

Last edited by BYRTT; 1st May 2018 at 07:10 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2018, 07:40 PM   #605
mkane77g is offline mkane77g  United States
Always Learning
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: 100 miles N. of S.F.
S. Harsch XO
Heres my Harsch
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1.jpg (85.1 KB, 16 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2018, 08:20 PM   #606
BYRTT is online now BYRTT  Denmark
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
S. Harsch XO
Quote:
Originally Posted by perceval View Post
...Oh my, Byrtt,

I know you meant well, but showing a window like this is going to scare away anyone not having great knowledge of DSP and its power. I'm not sure I understand it myself!

I, too, don't understand why some are so reluctant to add DSP to their chain... Pure sound doesn't mean just connect + and - to a driver to me. Pure sound should be the whole experience, without driver or box coloration, the best balance that brings a smile to my face.

I've never heard a driver that didn't need a nudge here or there to sound the best of its abilities.
Yes i meant it well and also think yourself understand it, doing below visual routing and filtering for a normal left and right channel will add excess phase distortion for a Harsch filter that then could be A/B evaluated into a head phone domain or via existing speakers.
Attached Images
File Type: png 5010.png (29.8 KB, 20 views)

Last edited by BYRTT; 1st May 2018 at 08:27 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


S. Harsch XOHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FS: Tent Labs XO 3.2, XO Supply, XO Module [New In Box] $135/all lupin..the..3rd Swap Meet 2 17th April 2015 06:10 PM
convert passive XO speaker to active XO halibutman Multi-Way 8 5th February 2015 06:40 PM
50Mhz XO vs. 49.152Mhz XO? Mull3t Digital Line Level 3 31st May 2013 01:07 AM
Digital XO vs Op-amp XO, which would be best to use in active speakers? MikeHunt79 Analog Line Level 11 16th November 2009 05:06 PM
1st Order XO with -6dB XO frequency. Has anyone tried this? primalsea Multi-Way 20 28th May 2004 06:10 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:08 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.00%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki