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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

S. Harsch XO
S. Harsch XO
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Old 26th April 2018, 01:41 AM   #601
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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S. Harsch XO
I would also prefer a simple passive XO so I don’t have to add more powered boxes. But passive Harsch looks challenging. Perhaps an XO around 800Hz would be an option for passive in terms of reasonable component values?
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Old 1st May 2018, 03:58 PM   #602
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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S. Harsch XO
A 4th order low pass on a woofer is not hard, as well as a 2nd order high pass on the full-range/tweeter. The trick is to use very nominally smooth-flat response drivers to start with and then use mechanical displacement to effect the large time-delay required for the Harsch XO. So for passice Harsch XO, you will end up with a big stepped baffle speaker (or perhaps a horn for the tweeter that gives it the required setback). Ideally, DSP is the most effective route. For passive, it might actually be easier to do a good first order, so-called, 'transient perfect' XO. I put that in quotes as Byrtt is very particular about the word perfect. Maybe 'transient good' is more accurate

Indeed, I developed a passive Harsch XO for my PMC Clone TL speaker but I started with rather inexpensive drivers that were not very flat to start with and ended up requiring lots of filters (cost) to clean up. So start with a flat clean wide driver.

Low-Cost PMC-inspired TL Monitor with DC130A and DC28F

Here is the Passive XO (I never built it due to cost/complexity):
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Predicted step response:
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Speaker that the above passive XO was designed for. Now happily running Harsch on mini-DSP with active amplification:
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Last edited by xrk971; 1st May 2018 at 04:05 PM.
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Old 1st May 2018, 06:02 PM   #603
perceval is offline perceval  Taiwan
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Oh my, Byrtt,

I know you meant well, but showing a window like this is going to scare away anyone not having great knowledge of DSP and its power. I'm not sure I understand it myself!

I, too, don't understand why some are so reluctant to add DSP to their chain... Pure sound doesn't mean just connect + and - to a driver to me. Pure sound should be the whole experience, without driver or box coloration, the best balance that brings a smile to my face.

I've never heard a driver that didn't need a nudge here or there to sound the best of its abilities.
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Old 1st May 2018, 06:52 PM   #604
BYRTT is offline BYRTT  Denmark
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S. Harsch XO
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
...Ideally, DSP is the most effective route. For passive, it might actually be easier to do a good first order, so-called, 'transient perfect' XO. I put that in quotes as Byrtt is very particular about the word perfect. Maybe 'transient good' is more accurate ...
See my name mentioned here for passive verse DSP no it might not be easier to do 1st order there, actually 1st order is probably the slopes that need most components and doing boost are actually not very easy or impossible do in passive world, each band should end be smooth and cover 10 octaves to be right else you add misunderstood non intended distortion so DSP power will probably real world get one closer to target and can call it a 1st order transient perfect system.

Easy example of the misunderstood non intended distortion is to look at your own simple passive 1st order implementation, below orange trace is your own measured step or square wave performance and green trace is my synthetic for how that declining curve as frq goes up response should have looked like, everything in square wave before 1,2mS is pure non intended distortion that in a proper executed 1st order system would not be there. If we seek stand out system sound yes its probably the way to go and can see with that nasty overshoot how its good to by ear judge and calibrate the right compensation cap as it was done over at ALPHA amp thread lately.
S. Harsch XO-5005-png

Its a bit over my head lately why it seems objective textbook target data seems had been dropped to get pleasing or stand out sound often mentioned as musicality/engagement/soundstage, aren't we just getting fooled in those subjective tests, what i mean here is after all we are listening to a recording so it got to somehow on a relative scale sound as a recording because microphone and various recording system devices have their natural limitations.

All that said suggest take a survive into a transient perfect isolated good acoustics headphone domain to discover how excess phase from higher orders than 1st order XO will sound like there, and think you will be surprised its so much more less a noticeable distortion than what one in real world acoustics environment will blame those XO's be responsible for and leading one to make wrong conclusions, on the contrary higher order help get drivers in their comfortable pass band zone normally leading to less distortion and also it helps one to hit exactly the target of what the XO topology dictates.
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Last edited by BYRTT; 1st May 2018 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 1st May 2018, 07:40 PM   #605
mkane77g is offline mkane77g  United States
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S. Harsch XO
Heres my Harsch
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Old 1st May 2018, 08:20 PM   #606
BYRTT is offline BYRTT  Denmark
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S. Harsch XO
Quote:
Originally Posted by perceval View Post
...Oh my, Byrtt,

I know you meant well, but showing a window like this is going to scare away anyone not having great knowledge of DSP and its power. I'm not sure I understand it myself!

I, too, don't understand why some are so reluctant to add DSP to their chain... Pure sound doesn't mean just connect + and - to a driver to me. Pure sound should be the whole experience, without driver or box coloration, the best balance that brings a smile to my face.

I've never heard a driver that didn't need a nudge here or there to sound the best of its abilities.
Yes i meant it well and also think yourself understand it, doing below visual routing and filtering for a normal left and right channel will add excess phase distortion for a Harsch filter that then could be A/B evaluated into a head phone domain or via existing speakers.
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Last edited by BYRTT; 1st May 2018 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 8th June 2018, 01:28 AM   #607
Aatto is offline Aatto  United States
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Harsch XO at 500Hz, FAST project inspired by X 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST Ref Monitor with SS 10F-8424G00 and SBA SB23NRXS45 powered by Alpha 20 for HF and FH9 for LF.

Thanks everybody for well documented process.
Cheers
A.
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File Type: jpg Harsch 1st Try LF+HF II.jpg (105.7 KB, 76 views)
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Old 8th June 2018, 03:58 AM   #608
mkane77g is offline mkane77g  United States
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S. Harsch XO
If I may ask what makes that a Harsch XO?
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Old 27th July 2018, 02:16 PM   #609
gadut is offline gadut  Indonesia
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Default if you have to choose

I decided to keep my big OB with no xo for AN 8" and build another project for Aino gradient clone 4way active dual 12" subwoofer sealed, baffless 12" PA woofer : 5" midrange (alpair 10p, someday i might try satori mr13p-8): tweeter with beston rt002a-dipole or vifa ox20sc00-04 like nao note

with only 1 minidsp 2x4hd and nu3000dsp for subwoofer, i have to choose 1 part which wont be handled by dsp but with simple crossover.

If you have to choose between woofer or tweeter (midrange is mandatory using dsp) for harsch XO without dsp, which one is the best try?

my first guess say that I can try passive harsch xo for tweeter, or pllxo before the amplifier then i can use physical delay which will be less than 5cm with 4.8kHz fc. 2nd guess is for the woofer and dont apply any delay since the cutoff is low and baffless already started to roll off in 200Hz

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