Round 3 is coming up with a blowout between TC9FD, 10F/8424, P830986, 3FE22, B80, A7P, A7.3, and SBA65WBAC25-4. If you think a CD player, amp, miniDSP set for high pass in a FAST and an aperiodic sealed TL is convolved - I don't know how that is more complicated than the 3 way setup Jon is planning to do where it will be used in a band pass mode not high pass. What cabinet will he be doing? Has he done this twice before between 19 different drivers (there were some out of production ones I did that were on top of the in production drivers). There is a lot of work involved and a lot of fine details that you don't get right if doing it for the first time.
The offer stands though if you are interested in having the FF85 as part of round 3.
The offer stands though if you are interested in having the FF85 as part of round 3.
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When a person is listening directly, he is listening to his system with the driver.
In your test the person listening is using that same system + his speaker to listen to the driver you are "testing" high passed (removing any influence from the LF -- not good if you want to use the FR as a FR, and adding something from the woofer & the XO chosen) convolved at a minimum with your system, your room, a miniDSP (of which i saw a post that brings question to its ultimate fidelity), your amp, source, etc, the measuring mic (an uncalibrated plastic capsuled mic aimed at recording live music, a micpreamp and A/D in one inexpensive package), converted to a lossy format (?). An ideal setup to remove all the very important low level information from the test and make any gross issues stand out more than they would otherwise.
dave
In your test the person listening is using that same system + his speaker to listen to the driver you are "testing" high passed (removing any influence from the LF -- not good if you want to use the FR as a FR, and adding something from the woofer & the XO chosen) convolved at a minimum with your system, your room, a miniDSP (of which i saw a post that brings question to its ultimate fidelity), your amp, source, etc, the measuring mic (an uncalibrated plastic capsuled mic aimed at recording live music, a micpreamp and A/D in one inexpensive package), converted to a lossy format (?). An ideal setup to remove all the very important low level information from the test and make any gross issues stand out more than they would otherwise.
dave
Thanks that is certainly a welcome change of style if real world documentation is allowed.
Please come over your own personal problems with xrk971, you take data documention from most every source good enough and use it for discussions or progress for speaker building knowledge, but at once it made by xrk971 its flawed data or his gear is flawed, heck his plots and data extracted room modes are inline with those taken elsewhere on earth. xrk971 is not wrong on mostly anything he share and show here, he is just limited by the cost of equipment he can afford but gear at that price point doesn't stop one from showing real world actual performance out side a anechoic environment.
Why don't you just document data yourself about ff85wk if its so good, show plots and show best box scenario, that could stop those endless discussions when a member with commercial interest post at diy sector claims a piece of gear to be superior, and claims data shared by a diy member is way wrong.
No change, i have shipped out drivers before, but not for any inherently flawed tests.
I have no idea where that comment comes from.
dave
What is all this plastic capsule mic preamp USB converter business in $60 retail package? Have no idea. I offer to put your driver through the same setup that lots of others have kindly provided drivers for and all you can come up with are excuses and put downs (which are wrong by the way) on my gear. Whatever dude.
FYI the Zoom H4 uses machined aluminum housings on the mic capsules. It records straight to 24 bit 96khz wav files. No USB conversion. $400 new back in 2007.
If you are talking about the measurement mic - that too is machined black anodized aluminum housing. I would add that a preamp and ADC located at the mic capsule will be superior with regards to noise pickup and calibration errors and drift if using off board preamp and separate sound card which also requires calibration. $80 not $60 and price has nothing to do with accuracy. You can have a $600 Earthworks M30 that if connected to a preamp (with 48v phantom power - how clean is that 48v?) with a long XLR cable and then connected to a sound card sitting inside a noisy SMPS powered PC case will not necessarily be any better.
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The one you talk about ll the time… your measure mic.
Sorry, news to me. Where do the digitized files go, how do you get them into the computer? The hosings on the mic have nothing to do with the capsules. Likely much better than the measure mic. The sound is still convolved with the mic. The very act of using a mic degrades the sound -- mic is not an ear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoom_H4
A whole cheap stereo recording device, not just a mic …
The $60 is what you said IIRC, and a fancy aluminum hosuing speaks to the quality of what is inside.
$700 is what i find… cheaper than i thot. They do have a metal capsule.
How clean is the phantom power in your mic?
Not me.
Jon says he has M50s, and is unlikely to have scrimped on his mic pre.
The same heavily flawed setup. No thank you.
This whole lot is off-topic… sorry i didn't introduce the sub-thread. That you don't seem to understand the shortcomings is an important data point.
dave
I think the actual electret condensor mic capsule on all of these mics is the same 1/4in dia aluminum capsule. Probably made by Panasonic and is same as WM61A.
http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ABA5000/ABA5000CE22.pdf
Zoom H4 files go to SD memory card. Convert wav files to MP3 using Audacity on PC.
You know nothing of Jon's setup - and he has not shown us his setup or data taken with his setup yet conveniently you give him benefit of the doubt by saying he has a better setup and did not scrimp on his preamp.
The truth is, the FF85WKen is something you are afraid of pitting against the other low cost drivers for fear of a disappointing result in the polls. That would be commercial suicide for your driver enabling biz. The conflict of interest is clear so no big deal.
http://industrial.panasonic.com/lecs/www-data/pdf/ABA5000/ABA5000CE22.pdf
Zoom H4 files go to SD memory card. Convert wav files to MP3 using Audacity on PC.
You know nothing of Jon's setup - and he has not shown us his setup or data taken with his setup yet conveniently you give him benefit of the doubt by saying he has a better setup and did not scrimp on his preamp.
The truth is, the FF85WKen is something you are afraid of pitting against the other low cost drivers for fear of a disappointing result in the polls. That would be commercial suicide for your driver enabling biz. The conflict of interest is clear so no big deal.
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Plastic capsule in an aluminum housing
So a whole little computer inside…not just a USB chip (it has one of those too).
dave
Gross issues don't need any extra help from the measurement setup to stick out like dogs balls.
Setup correctly, even a cheap measurement mic setup can deliver more linear results than anyone could ever hope for a speaker to produce.
I use a $40 Dayton EMM-6 mic, a $150 sound interface (E-MU 0204 USB), $40 home made 48v phantom PSU, a $100 speaker amplifier. Noise floor of that setup is 90-100dB at everything except low frequencies (<100Hz).
At 96dB SPL, i get a mild 2nd order harmonic from the mic (-50dBFS), otherwise non-linear distortion is dominated by the speaker under test. If i move the mic further away I get room effects but the mic is subjected to lower SPL avoiding the 2nd harmonic issue. I could also lower the level of the speaker amplifier but then the non-linear distortion of the speaker will disappear into the noise floor of the setup. This is something to consider - if you only listen at low levels (<85dB @ 1meter) then just buy the driver with the smoothest frequency response. Above that for 3-8" drivers you need to consider non-linear distortion.
Regardless of how good or bad your measurement setup is, it should provide a fair comparison between the speakers under test, as long as you make sure that the test conditions remain the same.
Of course, results can only compared from the same test setup but they both still provide useful results and some loose comparisons could be made if there are common drivers between both tests.
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May i ask what does your measurement set-up (a decent cheap set-up,but the mic needs to be calibrated) have to do with XRK's recording set-up?
dave
dave
None at all, but your post came across like the only way useful test results could be obtained would be with some multi thousand dollar setup where all the components are made from unobtainium.
Thank goodness Dayton Audio provide a individualised calibration with every EMM-6 🙂
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My post had nothing to do with measurement, so don't know how you got that.
I got my EMM-6 calibrated, good thing too, because the PE cal was not very good. I am quite leary of what it measures above 10k (same issue with my Behringers)
dave
I got my EMM-6 calibrated, good thing too, because the PE cal was not very good. I am quite leary of what it measures above 10k (same issue with my Behringers)
dave
I've got two EMM-6s. Provided cals measure perfectly at least with respect to each other.
Regardless, not really bothered as I have greater issues with flatness from edge diffraction on my 1.2x0.9m baffle.
Regardless, not really bothered as I have greater issues with flatness from edge diffraction on my 1.2x0.9m baffle.
I think it's a valid concern. There's no test that will be ideal. As the consequence, to draw the conclusion from the test we have to understand the limitation and it's implication or relevance.
And that was NOT test for FR. It was test for FAST, with RS225 woofer and so on (which is necessary, otherwise each driver will require their own boxes). If it was test for FR, I don't think 10F would have won.
But how far can someone use the test result to guide him in choosing the driver for purchase? For me myself the information is sufficient. And I think the test result has good correlation with feedback from users who have used the driver.
Very loose. XRK didn't equalized the response.
What is wrong with plastic capsule in aluminuim housing?
How is your hearing curve, Dave? When tested last time? My educated guess is that you loose more than 10dB past 6kHz!
I have not been able to find a technial paper, but have seen reference to the cal on plastic diagram mics only being accurate at the same SPL the cal was made at. And they don't go as high. Even with cal one has to take >10k with a gain of salt.
Last time i was checked it was flat to 10k (as high as they tested) in one ear, to 8k in the other (that was the ear i ruptured in a bad 3m dive landing at university). The test didn't go high enuff to say whether the 8k was a dip or a limit.
It should be noted that only the FR part of our hearing usually gets tested, the time part doesn't but is known to not degrade near as much with age … maybe why imaging becomes important. I'm not bat eared and i do get younger ears to evaluate the extreme top.
When i do driver testing, there is a discrete sweep, i can clearly hear the 10k point, the next 20k point is MIA.
And importantly, i had achieved 10k hr of listening training sometime before i was 30 and it has piled on since then. No extended exposure to loud, tinitus or other stuff that would degrade my hearing.
dave
Last time i was checked it was flat to 10k (as high as they tested) in one ear, to 8k in the other (that was the ear i ruptured in a bad 3m dive landing at university). The test didn't go high enuff to say whether the 8k was a dip or a limit.
It should be noted that only the FR part of our hearing usually gets tested, the time part doesn't but is known to not degrade near as much with age … maybe why imaging becomes important. I'm not bat eared and i do get younger ears to evaluate the extreme top.
When i do driver testing, there is a discrete sweep, i can clearly hear the 10k point, the next 20k point is MIA.
And importantly, i had achieved 10k hr of listening training sometime before i was 30 and it has piled on since then. No extended exposure to loud, tinitus or other stuff that would degrade my hearing.
dave
Nice! I have had bad hearing since I was a kid, highs are down and even lows vary a lot after I swallow. Mainly because of being allergic to hay, cats, etc.
I trust only my UMIK-1!
I can hear 10kHz from a loudspeaker but not at all in hearing test. Last heard crickets when I was 10!
I trust only my UMIK-1!
I can hear 10kHz from a loudspeaker but not at all in hearing test. Last heard crickets when I was 10!
You can't find the technical paper on the folly of plastic diaphragm mics because it is simply not true. The diaphragm material has nothing to do with accuracy.
This is more self serving cargo cult pseudo science. Are you so certain an Earthworks mic element uses a metal diaphragm? A metal diaphragm mic is used in high pressure applications like measuring pressure fluctuations in engine testing and where temperature resistance.
Here are scientific grade calibrated mics with polymer (plastic) diaphragms in a metal housing. I have used these before at work and nothing wrong with plastic diaphragms for peer reviewed science. These are the mics used for large array acoustic field testing.
http://www.pcb.com/contentstore/docs/PCB_Corporate/Vibration/Products/Manuals/130A23.pdf
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That would mean that they have a transfer function which causes a great deal of non linear distortion.
Using some basic math and my observed non linear distortion of approximately -50dB, that means that the mic I have would experience variations of approximately 0.03dB from 0dB SPL to 96dB SPL. Also that will be a smooth increase/decrease since it is characterised primarily by a 2nd order harmonic. If there was a sudden step change in frequency response it would be characterised by high order harmonic distortion.
More likely to affect the frequency response is temperature. If the ambient temperature changes it is very likely to change the frequency response. Given that this affects all kind of diaphragm materials, not just plastic, it's a moot point.
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Nice mics. Are the diaphragms metal or plastic? If plastic, P10 won't believe your results.
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