The objective is extremely clear, Jay, its to determine whether or not people can identify drivers from each others.
Last edited:
That's not what I mean with clear objective...
For example, what do you mean with "people"? It can mean "average people", or it can mean "human". If "human", you only need ONE individual to pass the test. If it is "average people", let me tell you that I know the answer: cannot.
And there must be conditions or thresholds, which you already have. And you should not question these thresholds (SPL, frequency band, etc.). It is what it is.
I thought you already have one or two that passed your test? Then the result is clear: Human can identify drivers in such conditions and thresholds. You should ask his comments to find out if it is caused by test mistake tho.
12 people passed the test so far.
Cannot draw final conclusion yet, but it seems people are not able to identify drivers, most of the time.
That alone is a big, big, big surprise to me.
Cannot draw final conclusion yet, but it seems people are not able to identify drivers, most of the time.
That alone is a big, big, big surprise to me.
In any serious scientific approach, one need to question anything.
in that case, maybe a small detail make the whole test null and void.
Could be the DAC quality, could be the lenght of music excerpts, could be anything i mentionned before...
That's part of the process to verify and question things. Most of all, to stay open-minded.
Let's say we found a good useful threshold: Dayton RS225 v.s. Radian 950PB.
Let's say +/-80% of participants DO identify those two drivers.
Then what ?
I ask their opinion about which one they prefer ? Which one is the most realistic ?
Already did with one participant. He prefered the Dayton and favored the Dayton as well to be the most realistic sounding.
But then what ? Even if i ask 50 people about these two, we will be stucked with answers on them drivers only.
And WHO would seriously use a Dayton RS225 up to 7.2khz ???
Let's say +/-80% of participants DO identify those two drivers.
Then what ?
I ask their opinion about which one they prefer ? Which one is the most realistic ?
Already did with one participant. He prefered the Dayton and favored the Dayton as well to be the most realistic sounding.
But then what ? Even if i ask 50 people about these two, we will be stucked with answers on them drivers only.
And WHO would seriously use a Dayton RS225 up to 7.2khz ???
In case you didnt notice, guys. Or in case you missed the last few pages...
The Dayton RS225 woofer was thrown in the test in pure despair, almost as a joke.
''oh yeeaah ?? You don't hear any difference, ok let's see THAT'' kind-of-thing.
Well, now it seems the damn RS225 is laughing at us now. And he's laughing up to 7.2khz.
The Dayton RS225 woofer was thrown in the test in pure despair, almost as a joke.
''oh yeeaah ?? You don't hear any difference, ok let's see THAT'' kind-of-thing.
Well, now it seems the damn RS225 is laughing at us now. And he's laughing up to 7.2khz.
So your objective question has been answered! That's the conclusion.
You mean "average people"? Of course they wouldn't be able to. I think you will be more surprised if you know how "bad" they really are.
I mean, the conditions should be part of the question. Like: Can a human perceive any difference between two selected midrange drivers when both drivers are rolled with 4th order LR using DSP at 400 Hz and 4 kHz, and so on...
You should be more concerned with the test procedure. Like level difference, change in acoustics, etc.
You should ask what differences they can perceive. Usually there are trade-offs. For example, driver A sound "more realistic" but driver B is more easy on ears. Remember that RS225 has bigger cone area, a metal cone material, and at that HF it should have very terrible non-linear distortion (From this alone, I guess, if you record the sound as A and B, I will be able to tell which one is the RS225).
So at this level of differences, I believe it is more about preferences. Not a surprising result at all for me.
And WHO would seriously use a Dayton RS225 up to 7.2khz ???
Hahaha! If people prefer a BLOATED bass response, so what? Will you make your speaker like that too? 🙄
That's why you should look for detailed comments from those passing the test. You want them to mention several variables of quality. From this, you will learn to set up your own thresholds for each of these variables... Everyone have different thresholds or priority that defines their TASTE.
Even though one can hammer the on axis response flat of all these drivers the off axis is another thing entirely.
Note here that I am not talking about hammering the off axis flat just that the off axis response for these drivers (and the variation across all your DUTs) is quite different so the overall power response, and energy radiated into the room, will vary considerably.
Even though the on axis is the most important part these large off axis variations (one driver starting to beam at 1.5kHz whereas another one happily march on up to 5kHz) will change the tonal balance simply by being there. And by that I mean it's no fault of the driver it's just physics doing its thing.
Note here that I am not talking about hammering the off axis flat just that the off axis response for these drivers (and the variation across all your DUTs) is quite different so the overall power response, and energy radiated into the room, will vary considerably.
Even though the on axis is the most important part these large off axis variations (one driver starting to beam at 1.5kHz whereas another one happily march on up to 5kHz) will change the tonal balance simply by being there. And by that I mean it's no fault of the driver it's just physics doing its thing.
Maybe.
Maybe not.
I'm not sure about anything at this moment 😕
Since it seems very obvious that once EQ'd and level-matched all drivers sounds very similar (or identical for most people) i'll have to question few things...
1. Is the ''learning'' thing could be the problem ?
2. Is the musical excerpts are not good enough ? Too short or too long ?
3. Should i move away the chair ?
4. Poor quality Source/DAC ?
5. SPL level too low ?
or else ??
... i'm just brainstorming again... Something in the set-up and/or methodology might be wrong. Or maybe it's just us, humans, that limits everything.
Just wondering can you give us your opinion of the various drivers you have heard in your setup after the eq? Subjectively, of cause. Is the difference so small that it is that difficult to see a difference in various driver's sound?
Personnaly, subjectively, i ''FEEL'' a difference between many of them, even EQd and Level-matched.
Problem is: i cannot prove that i'm able to identify them! 😱
... but anyway, even not-blinded, once EQd the difference i ''feel'' is not much. For sure it's a lot less than what i expected.
Feel the force Luke…
You are using a different subset of the brain in an ABX test as you are when you are listening for enjoyment.
dave
You are using a different subset of the brain in an ABX test as you are when you are listening for enjoyment.
dave
The result isn't really surprising. Much of the differences people describe between drivers are most likely related to lack of level matching, differences in crossover, EQ, and bias.
Clear differences are distinguished in blind tests, there's nothing wrong with the method of ABX when differences are more than subtle. So far, nothing indicates such differences when drivers are equally EQed.
Clear differences are distinguished in blind tests, there's nothing wrong with the method of ABX when differences are more than subtle. So far, nothing indicates such differences when drivers are equally EQed.
Last edited:
AIN'T OVER YET! 
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
+1
In order of impact, my educated-guess:
1. Frequency response
2. Level-matching
3. bias of any kind (price, size, look, reputation, memories, etc..)
... there is also the question of point of source.
Surface of sound wave emission.
Let's say we blindtest a line array or group of drivers againt the same model but only one piece. All EQ and level matched, of course..
Even blinded, we will feel it clearly that it comes from a much greater surface ? Am i right ?
Surface of sound wave emission.
Let's say we blindtest a line array or group of drivers againt the same model but only one piece. All EQ and level matched, of course..
Even blinded, we will feel it clearly that it comes from a much greater surface ? Am i right ?
I enjoy listening to music in a ABX test. It is a MUSIC, damn it! And I am using the same subset of my brain - the one which is between my ears.