What I need - extremely robust and loud 5" mid-woofer that plays from 400 Hz to ~3 Khz and HF driver to complement it. The lows are already being taken care of, by dual 12" Beyma drivers per side.
Back Story:
I build recording studios and since large format studio monitors are prohibitively expensive, I've resorted to having them custom built. I've had good success with Wayne Parham's 4Pi.
Recently I had this built for a client. But instead of going passive all the way, I had Wilmslow design a passive crossover between the mids and hF drivers. For LF to mid/HF I have a DBX Driverack PA2. The system is powered by two Crown XLS-2500 amps. Crossover is LR24 @ 400 Hz - High Pass for the mid/HF section and low pass for the LF.
When I set up the system about 10 days ago it went up to ear bleed levels and sounded extremely clear. None of the drivers seemed in the least bit stressed, till I reached my loudness bearing threshold (which is quite high). However, my client warned me that he is likely to drive it even further.
Ten days later, he had a 10 hour work day continuously pumping the speakers, stepped out for dinner - came back to listen to the mix, and in the middle of the song BOTH SETS OF MID AND HF DRIVERS BLEW UP. He sheepishly tells me that since the system was so clean, he kept driving it louder and louder - Personally, I don't get how anybody could possibly listen so loud for so long, but that is just me.
So, we have decided to buy more robust and potentially louder mid and HF drivers, do away with the passive crossover, add another amplifier and tri-amp the system. We have consciously decided to compromise some finesse for more brute force - so I have been looking at PA mid-woofers and 1.3"+ HF drivers. We have the 2 x 6 digital loudspeaker management system available (with a ton of processing for smoothing things out).
Which 5" mid woofer will play significantly louder than the Scan-Speak Illuminator 15WU/8741T-00 ? I have 440W per channel @ 8 ohms already available for this one driver.
Which (non compression) HF driver will take **** tons of abuse - more than the ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/662000 Tweeter?
As a starting point, I am looking at the Beyma 5P200Fe for mid-woofer duties.
And for HF, I am looking at the Seas Excel T35C-002 - I look at pro large format monitors like the ATC SCM 200 and I see they have similarly large HF drivers crossed over @~3.x KHz.
I also happen to have a pair of Morel ET448s - will they be able to take the thrashing?
Any input on choice of drivers is much appreciated.
Thank you.
Back Story:
I build recording studios and since large format studio monitors are prohibitively expensive, I've resorted to having them custom built. I've had good success with Wayne Parham's 4Pi.
Recently I had this built for a client. But instead of going passive all the way, I had Wilmslow design a passive crossover between the mids and hF drivers. For LF to mid/HF I have a DBX Driverack PA2. The system is powered by two Crown XLS-2500 amps. Crossover is LR24 @ 400 Hz - High Pass for the mid/HF section and low pass for the LF.
When I set up the system about 10 days ago it went up to ear bleed levels and sounded extremely clear. None of the drivers seemed in the least bit stressed, till I reached my loudness bearing threshold (which is quite high). However, my client warned me that he is likely to drive it even further.
Ten days later, he had a 10 hour work day continuously pumping the speakers, stepped out for dinner - came back to listen to the mix, and in the middle of the song BOTH SETS OF MID AND HF DRIVERS BLEW UP. He sheepishly tells me that since the system was so clean, he kept driving it louder and louder - Personally, I don't get how anybody could possibly listen so loud for so long, but that is just me.
So, we have decided to buy more robust and potentially louder mid and HF drivers, do away with the passive crossover, add another amplifier and tri-amp the system. We have consciously decided to compromise some finesse for more brute force - so I have been looking at PA mid-woofers and 1.3"+ HF drivers. We have the 2 x 6 digital loudspeaker management system available (with a ton of processing for smoothing things out).
Which 5" mid woofer will play significantly louder than the Scan-Speak Illuminator 15WU/8741T-00 ? I have 440W per channel @ 8 ohms already available for this one driver.
Which (non compression) HF driver will take **** tons of abuse - more than the ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/662000 Tweeter?
As a starting point, I am looking at the Beyma 5P200Fe for mid-woofer duties.
And for HF, I am looking at the Seas Excel T35C-002 - I look at pro large format monitors like the ATC SCM 200 and I see they have similarly large HF drivers crossed over @~3.x KHz.
I also happen to have a pair of Morel ET448s - will they be able to take the thrashing?
Any input on choice of drivers is much appreciated.
Thank you.
Attachments
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5inch: Overview
That SEAS tweeter is rated 100W via a 2.5k 2nd order Butterworth.
The Vifa XT25BG60 is equally rated 100W but via a 500Hz 2nd order Butterworth so should prove to be substantially more robust.
Transducer Detail | Tymphany
That SEAS tweeter is rated 100W via a 2.5k 2nd order Butterworth.
The Vifa XT25BG60 is equally rated 100W but via a 500Hz 2nd order Butterworth so should prove to be substantially more robust.
Transducer Detail | Tymphany
vifa is 92db/2.83v
seas is 95dB/2.83v
And they are both rated according to iec 268-5 so the seas is the one to choose.
the bigger voice coil of the seas is also an advantage here.
you should waveguide it as well imo.
Yep both use pink noise with 6dB crest factor but for the SEAS the noise is high pass filtered at 2.5k while with the Vifa it is hp filtered at 0.5k.
No argument about the waveguide though.
You can find some interesting measurements in this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/241286-my-first-wave-guide-speaker-lots-pics.html
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One 5" in this monitoring system is not going to last on 400Hz and upwards. Not without a horn or waveguide. With most kinds of music, quite a lot of acoustic energy is required around midrange frequencies. There are a few more or less DIY designs with 5" mids with waveguides, but I'd stick to at least 6,5" mids or doubling drivers (MTM?).
Faital Pro
Here's one that seems to look okay on paper, but I'd have to agree with some
of the others; a single 5 inch just won't move enough air at 400Hz.
Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" Speakers - Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" midrange speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet. Faital Pro M5N8-80 80 watt 5" high efficiency of 99dB SPL for all midrange applications.
Here's one that seems to look okay on paper, but I'd have to agree with some
of the others; a single 5 inch just won't move enough air at 400Hz.
Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" Speakers - Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" midrange speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet. Faital Pro M5N8-80 80 watt 5" high efficiency of 99dB SPL for all midrange applications.
I hope the thing about one 5" driver not being able to handle 400 Hz to 3.x KHz is not strictly true. I don't want to modify the speaker boxes (other than the baffle), as it would involve rebuilding the entire wall. The ATC SCM300ASL Pro, which is the gold standard in studio monitoring has a 3" driver take care of the range.
I'm looking at the Morel CAT378 HF driver because of its waveguide and power handling capabilities. Would it be more robust than the HF driver that fried? Any comments?
Thank you. I have been looking at that, and a few others. I'll come back on this when I have narrowed the choices.
I'm looking at the Morel CAT378 HF driver because of its waveguide and power handling capabilities. Would it be more robust than the HF driver that fried? Any comments?
Thank you. I have been looking at that, and a few others. I'll come back on this when I have narrowed the choices.
I bet those drivers didn't decease because of Xmax. What input power do you need to drive a reasonably normal 5" mid to 127dB?
FWIM: Take a Beyma 5P200Fe e.g. Reasonable efficiency at about 90dB@2,83V/1m half space. To take that unit to 127 dB, you'd need several kW.
In a reasonably damped studio environment and at listening distances of about 4m, one would need headroom up to 120dB with mean SPL around 105 to 110dB. But even that mean level would require more continuous power than a lot of mids can handle. 110dB at 1m is not 110dB at 4m in a control room, even when you count in the doubling of the stereo drivers. So if the TS wants to continue using a 5" I'd suggest adding power indicators on the amps. And maybe dedicated limiters between console and amps.
In a reasonably damped studio environment and at listening distances of about 4m, one would need headroom up to 120dB with mean SPL around 105 to 110dB. But even that mean level would require more continuous power than a lot of mids can handle. 110dB at 1m is not 110dB at 4m in a control room, even when you count in the doubling of the stereo drivers. So if the TS wants to continue using a 5" I'd suggest adding power indicators on the amps. And maybe dedicated limiters between console and amps.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
get replacement midrange from genelec 1036a
Strange thing is - there was a DBX limiter that kicked in well before the amp showed clipping - in fact, I never saw the clip light come on during my installation. (there was no limiter for the LF drivers, btw.) Could this have happened because of continuous high volume listening for 10+ hours?
On another note - I am thinking of changing the strategy completely. I'm thinking of a coaxial 8" driver such as the Eminence Beta8CX. 250W RMS/500W program power - 92 dB sensitivity, works in a sealed enclosure that will fit comfortably into my existing cabinet, cheap as chips, available down the road from here (which is a major consideration in Chennai, India) - whats not to like?
I know that a 5" mid-woofer and 1" silk dome tweeter is likely to be more finessed and have a broader, smoother dispersion than this combination of 8" PA woofer and horn loaded compression driver - however, I'm pretty clear that brute force and the ability to fit into the existing cabinet are priorities by far.
Any inputs, warnings, caveats are welcome, please. Do keep in mind that the system will now be tri-amplified and there is plenty of DSP available.
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Certainly. Ordinary hifi drivers are not meant to be driven at their max power rating. The magnet, pole pieces and frame start to overheat and the voice coil cannot lose its power any more. There you go.
Think it would be a wise first step. If one blows up pretty expensive ScanSpeak units driven as a mid, the audience isn't too picky on distorted sound obviously. The designer (you) has to make a tradeoff between raw acoustic power output, durability and clean undistorted sound. At high monitoring levels this means a completely different equation compared to normal living room listening levels.
I would have been more comfortable with "The hack (you) have to make a tradeoff..."
but thank you for your encouragement.Anyway, the bullet has been bitten. I have bought Beta8CX and PSD2013 drivers and handed them over to the person who will rebuild the baffle. I will run the 8CX off a Crown XLS2500 amp (430W @ 8 ohms) and I plan to by the XLS 1000 (215W @ 8 ohms) to power the PSD2103s... Lets see how this pans out...
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