Please advise on how to set up amps and XO for an Open Baffle system
Hi All,
Open baffles have caught my interest and I am making a plan to build a pair with double eminence Alpha 15a woofers and probably Tang band w8-1808 full range much in line with the Trio15 TB speakers from pure audio project.
My aim is to use my Simple SE tube amp http:////tubelab.com/designs/tubelab-sse/ for the full rangers and two hypex ds 4.0 plate amplifiers Hypex Electronics BV - DS4.0 for each double woofer. I already own one ds 4.0 so I would need to buy a second one or go another route using one pro amp like a Crown XLS 1000 Crown XLS 1000 Power Amplifier 2 x 350W at 4 Ohms for the woofers of both speakers.
The source is a Teac UD-501 DAC that has regular and balanced outputs.
I have been looking at lots of options but what I cannot figure out is what the best way would be to get this combination to work within a reasonable budget.
Some of the idea’s:
Split the output of the Tube amp. One to the W8-1808’s and one to the plate amp that has its own crossover. This is the way I run my current setup where I use one bass helper/subwoofer with the plate amp together with two horns that run full range. In order to cut the frequency of the W8-1808 I would need some sort of passive high pass filter right? Knowing very little filters or XO’s what kind of filter would be advisable?
Or:
Use a passive (or active?) pre amp and an active crossover (mini dsp?) that splits the signal into the tube amp and the pro amp (or double plate amps). Would a passive preamp work well together with a tube amp that already has volume control? What would be a suitable pre-amp, or maybe a combination of pre-amp with active crossover? Can pro amps with balanced in and outputs be combined with ‘regular’ plugs and speaker in and outputs?
Or:
Maybe another option altogether?
I have been surfing the web for weeks now but haven't been able to figure it out.
Any idea’s or insights are very welcome,
Best regards,
Jock
Hi All,
Open baffles have caught my interest and I am making a plan to build a pair with double eminence Alpha 15a woofers and probably Tang band w8-1808 full range much in line with the Trio15 TB speakers from pure audio project.
My aim is to use my Simple SE tube amp http:////tubelab.com/designs/tubelab-sse/ for the full rangers and two hypex ds 4.0 plate amplifiers Hypex Electronics BV - DS4.0 for each double woofer. I already own one ds 4.0 so I would need to buy a second one or go another route using one pro amp like a Crown XLS 1000 Crown XLS 1000 Power Amplifier 2 x 350W at 4 Ohms for the woofers of both speakers.
The source is a Teac UD-501 DAC that has regular and balanced outputs.
I have been looking at lots of options but what I cannot figure out is what the best way would be to get this combination to work within a reasonable budget.
Some of the idea’s:
Split the output of the Tube amp. One to the W8-1808’s and one to the plate amp that has its own crossover. This is the way I run my current setup where I use one bass helper/subwoofer with the plate amp together with two horns that run full range. In order to cut the frequency of the W8-1808 I would need some sort of passive high pass filter right? Knowing very little filters or XO’s what kind of filter would be advisable?
Or:
Use a passive (or active?) pre amp and an active crossover (mini dsp?) that splits the signal into the tube amp and the pro amp (or double plate amps). Would a passive preamp work well together with a tube amp that already has volume control? What would be a suitable pre-amp, or maybe a combination of pre-amp with active crossover? Can pro amps with balanced in and outputs be combined with ‘regular’ plugs and speaker in and outputs?
Or:
Maybe another option altogether?
I have been surfing the web for weeks now but haven't been able to figure it out.
Any idea’s or insights are very welcome,
Best regards,
Jock
Last edited:
Thanks Sreten,
This is the main page when it comes to OB I think so I had not missed that one.
To clarify my question I have added a sketch.
The question is what could be a good/or the best way to make the combination of amps and speakers to work in a OB. I could be in 2 way system where the bass has its separate amp I guess.
The question marks in the sketch mark where I don't know the best way to XO the frequencies or add volume control.
In combination with the plate amps I think it would be right before the full range driver.
In combination with the Crown amp it could be before the power amps as well but then I don't know how to regulate the volume of both amps together.
Best regards,
Jock
This is the main page when it comes to OB I think so I had not missed that one.
To clarify my question I have added a sketch.
The question is what could be a good/or the best way to make the combination of amps and speakers to work in a OB. I could be in 2 way system where the bass has its separate amp I guess.
The question marks in the sketch mark where I don't know the best way to XO the frequencies or add volume control.
In combination with the plate amps I think it would be right before the full range driver.
In combination with the Crown amp it could be before the power amps as well but then I don't know how to regulate the volume of both amps together.
Best regards,
Jock
Attachments
Hi Jock,
I use 2 Crown XLS1000 amps for my PAP style OB. Each amp powers an Eminence Beta 12LTA full range and 2 GRS 15PF woofers (parallel) using the internal crossover @ 150 Hz. Works great and I'm real happy with it.
Parts Express has the XLS1000 on sale for $230 which is a great deal. I got mine for $300 when they first came out.
Good luck,
Ken
I use 2 Crown XLS1000 amps for my PAP style OB. Each amp powers an Eminence Beta 12LTA full range and 2 GRS 15PF woofers (parallel) using the internal crossover @ 150 Hz. Works great and I'm real happy with it.
Parts Express has the XLS1000 on sale for $230 which is a great deal. I got mine for $300 when they first came out.
Good luck,
Ken
Hi Jockaruba,
I had similar dilemma, this is what I did...signal from DAC/Preamp/signal selector/EQ goes to small tube amp, powering single fullrange or mid/tweet section, with just one cap on open baffle, the same signal is sniffed by active crossover (or plate amp) or subwoofer active circuit leading to big solid state amp powering woofers. Rather flexible.
You can find some useful and irrelevant info on my page.
Audio Pages: Simple active crossover and chip amplifiers
I had similar dilemma, this is what I did...signal from DAC/Preamp/signal selector/EQ goes to small tube amp, powering single fullrange or mid/tweet section, with just one cap on open baffle, the same signal is sniffed by active crossover (or plate amp) or subwoofer active circuit leading to big solid state amp powering woofers. Rather flexible.
You can find some useful and irrelevant info on my page.
Audio Pages: Simple active crossover and chip amplifiers
Got it, I will go for the same setup then. This way I can control the volume with the tube amp and tap of the tube amps output as an input for the plate amps.
Could you suggest a capacitator as a starting point for the Tangband W8-1808 and/or give me some advise on where to start or what to look for? (not my expertise at all)
Best regards,
Jock
I use ~150-160 Hz...some people might find that too high, but they do not realize I always use two subwoofers, and they are placed right under the open baffles, so technically, those are not subwoofers per se, rather just woofers of multi way setup.
In FAST, some go higher all the way up to 300Hz...it all matters on application.
If true single sub is used, crossover frequency recommended to eliminate localization issues is much lower.
In FAST, some go higher all the way up to 300Hz...it all matters on application.
If true single sub is used, crossover frequency recommended to eliminate localization issues is much lower.
For simple estimation of cap required, I use this...
2-Way Crossover Designer / Calculator
For 8 ohm and 150Hz it comes to ...~130 uF (micro), I use bipolar cap for crossovers in parallel with high quality MP cap.
2-Way Crossover Designer / Calculator
For 8 ohm and 150Hz it comes to ...~130 uF (micro), I use bipolar cap for crossovers in parallel with high quality MP cap.
Looks like a nice plan.
The dirty little secret of Open Baffle is that we put woofers in a box for a good reason. To prevent the loss of low end. You have to account for that when you don't use a box. The woofer will have a rising response on an open baffle of reasonable size. The crossover has to be designed to take this rising response into account.
What you end up doing is trading away woofer top end to get a flat response. That means lowered sensitivity, often as much as 10-12dB lower. It's the trade off of open baffle bass.
There are things you can do to help make up for the bass losses, and you've got at least two of them gong in your design. High Q woofers and more of them.
The high Q woofers like the Alpha tend to have a fat bottom end that helps make up for the rising response. The other trick is setting the woofer low pass point very low. By setting the electrical low pass filter very low, the acoustic response will tend to come more in line with what you'd want to blend with your midrange or tweeter. You shave off midrange from the top of the woofer response to get a proper acoustic response.
That's the basics of getting a good tonal balance out of Open Baffle. Finding that low pass filter point that puts the woofers where you want them. Many people don't understand this fully, it took me a number of years to get it thru my own thick head.
The dirty little secret of Open Baffle is that we put woofers in a box for a good reason. To prevent the loss of low end. You have to account for that when you don't use a box. The woofer will have a rising response on an open baffle of reasonable size. The crossover has to be designed to take this rising response into account.
What you end up doing is trading away woofer top end to get a flat response. That means lowered sensitivity, often as much as 10-12dB lower. It's the trade off of open baffle bass.
There are things you can do to help make up for the bass losses, and you've got at least two of them gong in your design. High Q woofers and more of them.
The high Q woofers like the Alpha tend to have a fat bottom end that helps make up for the rising response. The other trick is setting the woofer low pass point very low. By setting the electrical low pass filter very low, the acoustic response will tend to come more in line with what you'd want to blend with your midrange or tweeter. You shave off midrange from the top of the woofer response to get a proper acoustic response.That's the basics of getting a good tonal balance out of Open Baffle. Finding that low pass filter point that puts the woofers where you want them. Many people don't understand this fully, it took me a number of years to get it thru my own thick head.
Thank you all for explaining on a level that is very understandable to a non-expert like me
In the picture below here's a summary of the amplifier setup and Capacitor from what I have learned so far.
Building the Simple SE amp I learned there's a world of 'audiophile' capacitors (ended up with claritycap) and I am sure the same goes when it come to capacitors for XO's.
Can you give me some direction towards what is or are capacitors that are 'generally accepted' as good value for money that would fit the project?
Another question is that I see the full range or mid speaker mostly placed in two positions, see sketch. One is on top of the woofers, the other is in the middle. What is the effect or difference between the two setups?
Best regards,
Jock
In the picture below here's a summary of the amplifier setup and Capacitor from what I have learned so far.
Building the Simple SE amp I learned there's a world of 'audiophile' capacitors (ended up with claritycap) and I am sure the same goes when it come to capacitors for XO's.
Can you give me some direction towards what is or are capacitors that are 'generally accepted' as good value for money that would fit the project?
Another question is that I see the full range or mid speaker mostly placed in two positions, see sketch. One is on top of the woofers, the other is in the middle. What is the effect or difference between the two setups?
Best regards,
Jock
Attachments
Hi Adason,
Could you suggest me a nice combo that would result in apx 165 uF? I have been surfing the web for two day's but I am lost in all the information abouts capacitors and all the reviews and opinions.
Thank you
Jock
Hi Jock, I use parts express for almost anything, so I suggest this....
150uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
You can add on any MP cap you have...10, 15, 20 uF
150uF 100V Electrolytic Non-Polarized Crossover Capacitor
You can add on any MP cap you have...10, 15, 20 uF
I like your teamwork Gentlemen
Adason, thank you for that. Now I am getting there.
Am I right to assume that the added MP capacitor determines the 'sound or quality' of the combination with the 150uF capacitor?
Pano, you had me going there for a while. Googled all kinds of combinations of TWW WTW together with Capacitor, Crossover, XO with no luck ofcourse...
Tweeter Woofer Woofer
Got it haha!
Best regards,
Jock
Adason, thank you for that. Now I am getting there.
Am I right to assume that the added MP capacitor determines the 'sound or quality' of the combination with the 150uF capacitor?
Pano, you had me going there for a while. Googled all kinds of combinations of TWW WTW together with Capacitor, Crossover, XO with no luck ofcourse...
Tweeter Woofer Woofer
Got it haha!Best regards,
Jock
In your case maybe FR-W-W?- Status
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