agree and whith "Bat" as well !
I find myself this subjective feeling is more depending on the source and its supply topology than the speaker itself... and I have a poor 85 DB one !
But all things being equal... there would be something around the FR curve, room modes and where you are (sweet spot) in the room ! Is there not low and high pressure zone in a room (in relation to the frequency involved) ! Too much people listen to their hifi with a wall just behind themselves ! But having a poor source and ampered speaker, rooms mode become the last of your problems ! (So phase, impedance of the speaker as well ?). And too much people are judging their speaker while having a lazy source regarding the "subjective" dynamic...
But what is "dynamic" ? For me it's the possibility to reproduce the difference between the hugest DB and the littliest DB signals with the acurate timing and with the acuracy in their respective amount of power. What to say : hey the room is a problem ! ... I believe it's a difficut task in the mid-bass and low end ! Listening to a huge live classical event is a great lesson !
But as soon as I listen to a VOT-A7.... I have no doubt anymore while not being the most accurate and detailed speaker in the mid-bass medium zone !
I find myself this subjective feeling is more depending on the source and its supply topology than the speaker itself... and I have a poor 85 DB one !
But all things being equal... there would be something around the FR curve, room modes and where you are (sweet spot) in the room ! Is there not low and high pressure zone in a room (in relation to the frequency involved) ! Too much people listen to their hifi with a wall just behind themselves ! But having a poor source and ampered speaker, rooms mode become the last of your problems ! (So phase, impedance of the speaker as well ?). And too much people are judging their speaker while having a lazy source regarding the "subjective" dynamic...
But what is "dynamic" ? For me it's the possibility to reproduce the difference between the hugest DB and the littliest DB signals with the acurate timing and with the acuracy in their respective amount of power. What to say : hey the room is a problem ! ... I believe it's a difficut task in the mid-bass and low end ! Listening to a huge live classical event is a great lesson !
But as soon as I listen to a VOT-A7.... I have no doubt anymore while not being the most accurate and detailed speaker in the mid-bass medium zone !
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Voice coils, especially small ones can change the sound at different levels, even instantaneously. Efficiency doesn't hurt in this respect.
You are talking about dynamic POTENTIAL at one hand. The other one is its "realization". When you listen to a single note in very low SPL, it has nothing to do with the maximum SPL the speaker is capable of (But it may have relation with noise, yes, as DNR is more or less a SNR).
Not really subjective. They principally refer to the same thing. Answers are already given by many posters. Just need to summarize 😉
What is collective wisdom on best compromise for a stereo speaker system. Two ways ? Three ways ? active ? passive ? Wideband with subwoofer ?
Regards.
Regards.
yes you can find an opinion stating that each is the best compromise
but you need to add full range, dipole, planar, line source...
but you need to add full range, dipole, planar, line source...
I think it is better explained in numbers such as Maximum F3 (e.g. lower or equal to 60Hz), maximum harmonic distortion, maximum group delay at certain frequency, flat +/- A dB from B Hz to C kHz, etc...
Because everyone have different taste/priority... And so these numbers will "removes" subjectivity...
OK. What I gather is it would be subjective and lots of good options and methods available to suit ones needs.
Thanks and regards.
Thanks and regards.
What's so funny? Thermal modulation is important part of dynamics, but not the whole story. Or did you mean something else?
No, you and SY reminded me of something funny, 😱
Thermal modulation isn't mentioned as often as some of the factors, and is less intuitive, so I thought I would.
Thermal modulation isn't mentioned as often as some of the factors, and is less intuitive, so I thought I would.
You can narrow down a design. For example, there are only so many ways to achieve 'x'. X needs y but won't work with z. Maybe consider choosing an enclosure style, find out what each is good for.
No. I'm talking about objectively measureable dynamic (which is closely related to max SPL), and a subjectively perceiveable dynamic (which must not be related to max SPL).
Nice side story: play a song over two identical amplifiers equipped with VU meters, only difference is the time constant of the VU meter. Guess which amplifier sounds more dynamic...
Visual appearance may influence the perceived sound. So maybe that's why speakers with big woofers "sound" more dynamic (my experience), although you play at levels far below max SPL.
Thanks Allen. Means when designing speakers, things are interdependent.
Most bookshelf go up to 60hz (just approximation) and was wondering with proper drivers and cabinet design how much low and linear response with sufficient sound pressure level one can get without messing the other things in a two way speaker system ? Hope this is related in some way to original query of the thread 🙂
Most bookshelf go up to 60hz (just approximation) and was wondering with proper drivers and cabinet design how much low and linear response with sufficient sound pressure level one can get without messing the other things in a two way speaker system ? Hope this is related in some way to original query of the thread 🙂
I think you have done very appreciable works about average and peak signal values of commercial records. Statistics show that a 16-20 dB ratio is common for fairly good records.
Considering the usual background noise of listening rooms and the usual average listening levels, we can determine the objective dynamic range necessary for what is called high fidelity sound reproduction :
loudspeakers are rarely a limiting factor. It they are, it is audible and it means that they are undersized for the levels demanded.
From what I read above, and also in many other places, I deduce that, for some people, "dynamic" is interpreted as the possibility of systems to deliver high SPLs. If this point of view is adopted, we all know what kind of material is required to obtain them and this should is answer to the initial question of the the thread.
It has been argued that high fidelity systems should be able to reproduce the "realistic" levels of concerts. What levels at what concerts ?
Reproducing at home the SPL peaks perceived by a listener of classical concerts is affordable - but usually not desired - to most systems.
Peak levels of a rock concert are very high, but average levels too, as well as background noise ! And the whole signal is always heavily compressed.
Result : SPLs are high but dynamics is poor.
Numerous estimations and experiences with real musical signals show it is unimportant in domestic conditions. If voice coils are considered as compressors, they do not behave like the familiar electronic ones : their thermal constant is measured in tens of seconds, not in tenths of second.
Regards.
A bookshelf speaker might compromise dynamics a little, it depends. I'm sure it could be minimised. Your issues with a bookshelf speaker are likely to be their location, the baffle/ their size, the shelf area behind them. As an example...
Subwoofers are possible. They are often seen used to just make up for small speakers but there is a hifi way to do them. If you can properly locate the mains in their shelf or stand, in the case of a shelf maybe build them in so they have a larger effective baffle and come closer to integrating with the walls behind rather than them supporting reflections, avoid nearby shelves behaving as resonators (fill them with something maybe), use a medium or larger woofer perhaps if you can fit them and match them. Lots you can come up with.
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Yes. I know what you are talking about.
That would make a good addition to the discussion of "what makes a speaker sound dynamics" 😀
It could be the high sensitivity of PA woofers, or simply power headroom of the big amplifier driving it. Most of the time, it is a combination of many well known variables.
I agree.
I've also seen at least one indirect reference to "resonances" (IOW, high efficiency designs are somehow "bad" because "high efficiency" designs aren't 0.01% efficient, rather they are more like 1% efficient). These type of references I believe are not actually on point. Nor discussions that are clearly off-point that I see here recently.
A dialog on maintaining low distortion of two particular types--modulation and compression (implying wide operating SPL/intensity without accompanying non-harmonic distortion)--are the biggest contributors to "dynamic loudspeaker" performance, and are much more relevant, IMO.
Chris
If you are referring to any of the typical direct radiating bookshelf loudspeaker designs, then I've got to say that we're not talking about the same thing when we say "dynamic loudspeaker performance factors". Those designs are clearly the antithesis of "dynamic", IMHO.
Chris
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