I am on the verge of building my first set of speakers and had pretty much plumpt for the SB Acoustics, either SB15NRX30 or SB15MFC30. Recently though, I have been looking at the Satori MW13P, which appeals to me being a smaller driver but still having reasonable Fs, and wondered if anyone has compared these drivers and could possibly offer opinions on the quality difference and whether they're worth paying twice the price for?
Thanks!!
Thanks!!
I haven't used it, but the longer I'm in this hobby, the less it makes sense to save dollars on parts (given a better part at higher cost). The time I put in is valuable so unless part of the fun is specifically meeting a tiny budget, or repurposing something, I'm inclined to spend a little more on a better woofer etc.
As long as costs stay reasonable go for the better driver. A well designed speaker will bring years of enjoyment. Double the price won't seem like anything in the long run.
It ultimately comes down to your level of ocd. I don't strive for the last 10%($$$) but I do want the best up to that point.
It ultimately comes down to your level of ocd. I don't strive for the last 10%($$$) but I do want the best up to that point.
If you are not experienced with loudspeaker and crossover design it may be better to build an existing design that has proven itself.
Jeff Bagby is an experienced engineer and his designs are particularly regarded by many, so I would think giving some thought to trying one of his first as it might save some anxiety in the process.
The 'Sopranos' by Jeff Bagby is a good, small design. There is a .pdf available on-line for the design.
C.M
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Thanks for the responses.
I totally agree theres no point going through all the trouble of producing anything if it's not going to be the best you can do it. But I'm actually wondering if the quality difference matches, or betters, the price difference? I have read a lot of reviews/opinions expressing how good both the Satori and SB15 drivers are but I haven't come across a direct comparison between them and wondered if anyone here has and can offer an insight.
Thanks!!
Edit: Thanks Tweet. I have looked at Jeff's, and many other peoples designs, and they all look great and are quite inspirational, but (maybe unfortunately for me, lol!) I'd much rather jump in at the deep end and start from scratch. Thanks!!
I totally agree theres no point going through all the trouble of producing anything if it's not going to be the best you can do it. But I'm actually wondering if the quality difference matches, or betters, the price difference? I have read a lot of reviews/opinions expressing how good both the Satori and SB15 drivers are but I haven't come across a direct comparison between them and wondered if anyone here has and can offer an insight.
Thanks!!
Edit: Thanks Tweet. I have looked at Jeff's, and many other peoples designs, and they all look great and are quite inspirational, but (maybe unfortunately for me, lol!) I'd much rather jump in at the deep end and start from scratch. Thanks!!
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If you have the thinking that a 50% increase in price should yield at least 50% increase in performance, better leave hi-end audio 
The more expensive it gets, the less the return but it is always that small detail that would make your brain notice something`s wrong. The Satori is an easier driver to work with and can be crossed within a wider range, has a better cone, better motor, better chassis and at the end - you`d build something you`d listen to for many years. It has lower Sd so don`t expect massive lower octave output just because simulation suggests so, you need membrane area to achieve this.
The cheaper road is, indeed, the more expensive one - you`d build a cheaper speaker, then you`d want to see how better another project is, you`d have to sell the existing one at a much lower price. When you draw the line, until you reach your enigma you`d have spent far more than if you go straight for the higher end stuff.
The more expensive it gets, the less the return but it is always that small detail that would make your brain notice something`s wrong. The Satori is an easier driver to work with and can be crossed within a wider range, has a better cone, better motor, better chassis and at the end - you`d build something you`d listen to for many years. It has lower Sd so don`t expect massive lower octave output just because simulation suggests so, you need membrane area to achieve this. The cheaper road is, indeed, the more expensive one - you`d build a cheaper speaker, then you`d want to see how better another project is, you`d have to sell the existing one at a much lower price. When you draw the line, until you reach your enigma you`d have spent far more than if you go straight for the higher end stuff.
At least there is 1 documented project by Joachim, the master himself for the crossover, so that should give you a little bit of support.
The answer is YES easily. It is a really good driver with exceptional bass, the character is full bodied, transparent and natural. I've heard them in few different designs including my own.
The answer is YES easily. It is a really good driver with exceptional bass, the character is full bodied, transparent and natural. I've heard them in few different designs including my own.
I think everybody is thinking of the 6" driver, the OP instead wants to use the smaller 5" driver with the same name (Satori). I'm not aware of any published design with the 5" driver, as it is relatively new.
Gracol, since it will be your first design, I don't know what your crossover and measurement skills are. Designing a crossover tailored for the drivers and box is not an easy task and (partial) failure has to be expected. Using expensive drivers is not a guarantee for a good sounding speaker if the crossover is not tailored, as a crossover is not simply a coil and a cap. It all comes down of what you want, a one shot excellent speaker, or a hobby where you are constantly experimenting with something new.
With this in mind I'd opt for one of the following:
1) Build an existing well documented design (one shot excellent speaker)
2) Try to design something with good value drivers, and this means something less expensive to what you have in mind. I followed this route some years ago with a Peerless mid-woofer (830656) and a Vifa tweeter (BC25TG15), made some mistakes, and learned something that I'm now able to use in designing and building speakers with more expensive drivers.
Ralf
Gracol, since it will be your first design, I don't know what your crossover and measurement skills are. Designing a crossover tailored for the drivers and box is not an easy task and (partial) failure has to be expected. Using expensive drivers is not a guarantee for a good sounding speaker if the crossover is not tailored, as a crossover is not simply a coil and a cap. It all comes down of what you want, a one shot excellent speaker, or a hobby where you are constantly experimenting with something new.
With this in mind I'd opt for one of the following:
1) Build an existing well documented design (one shot excellent speaker)
2) Try to design something with good value drivers, and this means something less expensive to what you have in mind. I followed this route some years ago with a Peerless mid-woofer (830656) and a Vifa tweeter (BC25TG15), made some mistakes, and learned something that I'm now able to use in designing and building speakers with more expensive drivers.
Ralf
Thanks for all the responses!!
I'm with the attitude that I would rather buy something for long-term as, like Mario says, in the long run it is a bit of a false economy, and as Lojzek says if you know you have a good quality/sounding driver it eliminates a major element in the problem elimination process.
Even though it is my first project, I don't really want to make someone elses design. I prefer more of a challenge starting from scratch (I also find I learn things a lot easier this way by trial and error, lol!) and to me there's not much difference 'practicing' with a £40 driver or a £200 driver, apart from the dent in my wallet, lol!
The main reason I ask is, as everyone probably has experienced at some point, paying more for something doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a better product.
I have looked over Joachim's projects in the past and they've been a great and informative read but, as Ralf pointed out, I am interested in the smaller 5" version which no-one seems to have documented yet (probably as they're relatively new). You would hope that it would carry the same quality and sound characteristics from its older brother but I just thought I would throw it out there and see if anyone has had first hand experiences with it and what their impressions are. From what I've read so far, the Satori range in general seem to get nothing but positive reviews so it seems a good direction to go.
I'm with the attitude that I would rather buy something for long-term as, like Mario says, in the long run it is a bit of a false economy, and as Lojzek says if you know you have a good quality/sounding driver it eliminates a major element in the problem elimination process.
Even though it is my first project, I don't really want to make someone elses design. I prefer more of a challenge starting from scratch (I also find I learn things a lot easier this way by trial and error, lol!) and to me there's not much difference 'practicing' with a £40 driver or a £200 driver, apart from the dent in my wallet, lol!
The main reason I ask is, as everyone probably has experienced at some point, paying more for something doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a better product.
I have looked over Joachim's projects in the past and they've been a great and informative read but, as Ralf pointed out, I am interested in the smaller 5" version which no-one seems to have documented yet (probably as they're relatively new). You would hope that it would carry the same quality and sound characteristics from its older brother but I just thought I would throw it out there and see if anyone has had first hand experiences with it and what their impressions are. From what I've read so far, the Satori range in general seem to get nothing but positive reviews so it seems a good direction to go.
Hi,
Starting from scratch using expensive drivers is an utter waste.
You've already got hold of the wrong end of the stick and it
will only get worse until you see the light, and can design.
Most newbies can't design a decent speaker to save their
lives, and typically cannot spot a good established design.
rgds, sreten.
Starting from scratch using expensive drivers is an utter waste.
You've already got hold of the wrong end of the stick and it
will only get worse until you see the light, and can design.
Most newbies can't design a decent speaker to save their
lives, and typically cannot spot a good established design.
rgds, sreten.
I have 6.5" 8ohm Satori woofers. They sound incredible, and they are a good value compared to woofers from SEAS and ScanSpeak. Wide flat bandwidth, low Fs, low Le makes designing with it easy, 2nd order passives sound great.
Cheaper drivers may be more difficult to design with, or have cone resonances that add annoying colorations. The Satori tweeter is excellent also.
Cheaper drivers may be more difficult to design with, or have cone resonances that add annoying colorations. The Satori tweeter is excellent also.
Having a go from scratch looks fine to me but having a go from scratch with expensive drivers looks a lot less so. What if you find, as may well be the case, that your expensive 13cm midwoofer is simply too small?
The SB15 drivers are good value standard range drivers that appear well suited to having a go from scratch with a first project. Expensive drivers are likely to be a better choice when you know more about what you are doing and can, for example, choose with more confidence which ones best fit your design.
Gracol, Just as an after-thought, if you want to 'roll your own' and you have a relatively large listening space why not try your hand at an open baffle design.
It saves a lot of work in cabinet making, generally there is none, and as a benefit the flat baffle is easily replaced. It will teach you a lot about loudspeaker design and most often gives more than acceptable results from cheaper drive units.
SB Acoustic drivers are a very good starting point, beautifully made and comes in excellent packaging and at a good price point.
C.M
It saves a lot of work in cabinet making, generally there is none, and as a benefit the flat baffle is easily replaced. It will teach you a lot about loudspeaker design and most often gives more than acceptable results from cheaper drive units.
SB Acoustic drivers are a very good starting point, beautifully made and comes in excellent packaging and at a good price point.
C.M
I agree with others that a well established design is a must if you're going to spend decent money on drivers on your first build- if you just want to muck around, go super cheap and learn the ropes on stuff that won't hurt your wallet, then move up to better stuff once you are able to design something solid- a process of years. Best value in DIY, if you own tools, is to build an established design. Saves a lot of work, but the work is fun for some of us nerds.
I don't agree at all with the people saying that first project better
be a well established design! The OP feels confident enough and
believes in positive outcome.
What is so hard about managing to voice a 2 way speaker?
If he doesn't succeed with simulating, he might by measuring,
and if he fails then, he will come back here to ask around and
someone will help eventually.
I have never done a project based on other people's work,
never felt it was essential. All you need is measurement gear,
good will to learn and some patience.
be a well established design! The OP feels confident enough and
believes in positive outcome.
What is so hard about managing to voice a 2 way speaker?
If he doesn't succeed with simulating, he might by measuring,
and if he fails then, he will come back here to ask around and
someone will help eventually.
I have never done a project based on other people's work,
never felt it was essential. All you need is measurement gear,
good will to learn and some patience.
Good morning, and thanks for all the responses!!
Thanks for the link twinter. I had come across that and seems to be a great speaker. Just wish he had compared it to SB15's, lol!
Thanks Richidoo, they sound nice and just what I am looking for.
I appreciate everyones thoughts regarding starting from scratch but, as a little background to me, I have been making prototypes of all sorts of products for the last 20 odd years which involves building other peoples designs. So, for me personally, to copy someone else's work is not challenging enough for me. I am in the fortunate position to have access to a workshop, spray booth, etc... so building the box is not the challenge for me. The challenge for me is the crossover and making the sound come together which, by the sounds of it, using the more expensive driver should make that side easier and reward a better result. Other than the drivers, the only real expense for me are the crossover components which to me will cost similar whether using a cheap or expensive driver.
At the moment I have an old set of Mission 770 floorstanders and my wife hates them being so big, so unfortunately it is she who is determining the size of the speaker, lol! But, I will be making a sub as well so I think the size should'nt be a problem.
I love the look of open baffle (never heard them) but not sure they would survive in my house at the moment with kids so will probably save that for a later project.
Thanks again to everyone, really appreciate your input. Any advice or opinions is always welcome!!
Edit: Hi Lojzek, and thanks!! That is very much the attitude I have. I think if this was a one-off I would go with an established design but, as I'm intending to build more, for me personally trial and error is the best way to learn.
Thanks for the link twinter. I had come across that and seems to be a great speaker. Just wish he had compared it to SB15's, lol!
Thanks Richidoo, they sound nice and just what I am looking for.
I appreciate everyones thoughts regarding starting from scratch but, as a little background to me, I have been making prototypes of all sorts of products for the last 20 odd years which involves building other peoples designs. So, for me personally, to copy someone else's work is not challenging enough for me. I am in the fortunate position to have access to a workshop, spray booth, etc... so building the box is not the challenge for me. The challenge for me is the crossover and making the sound come together which, by the sounds of it, using the more expensive driver should make that side easier and reward a better result. Other than the drivers, the only real expense for me are the crossover components which to me will cost similar whether using a cheap or expensive driver.
At the moment I have an old set of Mission 770 floorstanders and my wife hates them being so big, so unfortunately it is she who is determining the size of the speaker, lol! But, I will be making a sub as well so I think the size should'nt be a problem.
I love the look of open baffle (never heard them) but not sure they would survive in my house at the moment with kids so will probably save that for a later project.
Thanks again to everyone, really appreciate your input. Any advice or opinions is always welcome!!
Edit: Hi Lojzek, and thanks!! That is very much the attitude I have. I think if this was a one-off I would go with an established design but, as I'm intending to build more, for me personally trial and error is the best way to learn.
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If you look at what professionals use for desk speakers with subwoofers the midwoofer drivers are larger than the expensive 13 cm one you are proposing to use for a room. The speakers used by professionals in a room with subwoofers are much larger than the one you are proposing to use. How confident are you that they are using unnecessarily large drivers to get the high quality sound they need to do their job?
Having a go from scratch is fine and very likely what I would do in your situation. But opting to start with expensive drivers rather than good standard range ones when you don't know what you are doing does seem less than wise. Particularly when you are proposing to use what appears to be too small a driver for the task of generating clean sound at reasonable levels in a room when crossed at a low frequency to a subwoofer rather than a higher frequency to a woofer.
Active crossovers are more flexible and offer higher performance than passive crossovers. Is this an option for you?