Are Satori's worth the extra money?

[wintermute]

I'd suggest modeling each one, the SB15MFC30-8 models quite differently to the Satori MW13P-8

I'm assuming if you are going to use a sub you will be going vented. The satori will not go as low as the SB15MFC30-8 but the quick sims I did indicate that it should have less issues with port resonance. The size of box for the satori is quite tiny (only about 7L vented)

If you want to go sealed then the Satori in my opinion won't be an option (unless you are crossing over fairly high) The SB15MFC30-8 however would probably be ok sealed for crossing over to your sub.

I'm guilty of dropping a large sum on my first from scratch design. I had been playing around with various speaker combinations and off the shelf crossovers for about 20 years but that only really taught me what didn't work

My first, and second crossovers were not great, but the third one I am very happy with (as has been everyone who has listened to the speakers. It took me a LONG time to get the measurements good enough to reliably simulate the crossover, once I managed to do that it took a LONG time to come up with the third revision of the crossover. I've since learnt a few things that could probably help me to improve on that. But it wasn't a train wreck

I also would have probably done the cabinets differently now, but the woodworking was originally my biggest hassle, and once I had made some boxes, re-doing new ones was not really an option (I did make a prototype but then changed it for the final design )

Provided you are patient, tenacious and willing to learn from mistakes I think you will get there in the end, but it won't necessarily be a smooth ride

Tony.

 

[Gracol]

Hi Andy, thanks for your response.
With regard driver size, I have trialled small bookshelf speakers (b & w cm1) with a sub a while ago in my room and they filled the room (18 square metres) surprisingly well. Obviously bigger drivers would be ideal but for this particular project my aim is no larger than a 10 litre enclosure.
Active crossover isn't really an option as the main purpose of these is not only to have a nice sounding pair of speakers but predominantly is to learn the principals of passive crossovers.

 

[giralfino]

I am in the fortunate position to have access to a workshop, spray booth, etc... so building the box is not the challenge for me. The challenge for me is the crossover and making the sound come together which, by the sounds of it, using the more expensive driver should make that side easier and reward a better result. Other than the drivers, the only real expense for me are the crossover components which to me will cost similar whether using a cheap or expensive driver.

What you are missing is that in order to produce a good sounding speaker you need measurement gear and the knowledge to use it. You can't think of simply trying various crossovers and swapping components without knowing what you are altering. You can go near with good simulation (did you already try?), but if you want to squeeze out the last bit of an expensive driver you simply need a calibrated mic, related software, and knowledge to use it.

As I already said I designed from scratch as my first build, using good value drivers. I still consider this the best approach as you will necessarily do some mistakes, that can all be corrected using time and money. Are you set on the possibility to not have a finished, really good working speakers for many (but really many) months?

Ralf

BTW I have a degree in physics, extensive experience in sw tools, and read a lot about loudspeakers before my first build. People with lesser background will simply need more time than what I spent for understanding how to properly implement a tailored crossover.

 

[Lojzek]

If you look at what professionals use for desk speakers ...?

But opting to start with expensive drivers rather than good
standard range ones when you don't know what you are doing
does seem less than wise.

Why does it matter what some professionals use? Gracol has already stated
the ground principals. The loving wife has got something against bulky cabinets,
rightfully so. The alternative is about 10 litre box with nice looks which means
a smaller diameter drive unit. He has already tried simulating and tracing plots
so he is not that uninformed. Figuring out that more expensive parts might be a
smarter move is the most natural course of action because of all marketing we
are submitted to. When you have no better data to rely on, this is a wise choice.

He did try to get information on the differences between the two models he has
in mind, only this is too hard for a typical DIYer to scientifically explore. Show
me how many of them know and are prepared to set a valid double blind testing
rig just to explore if there would be a perceivable quality change among these.

I would rather see some real world professional advice from the people claiming
to be experts in this field regarding measurements if it's not to great a secret
to share.

The chance for the doctors of physics and other rocket scientists is always there
to promote good engineering practice.

 

[andy19191]

With regard driver size, I have trialled small bookshelf speakers (b & w cm1) with a sub a while ago in my room and they filled the room (18 square metres) surprisingly well. Obviously bigger drivers would be ideal but for this particular project my aim is no larger than a 10 litre enclosure.

If you use too small a driver the peaks in the music will be suppressed but the music will be perceived as just as loud, if not slightly louder, than a speaker that is cleanly delivering the peaks. In this situation opting for an expensive driver brings minimal benefits in terms of sound quality whereas opting for a standard range driver with more cone area would bring substantial benefits.

I am not labouring the point in an effort to persuade you to opt for larger drivers, your future builds should teach you that along with plenty of other insights, but to illustrate how opting for expensive drivers before you know what you are doing can result in a waste of money.

 

[andy19191]

Why does it matter what some professionals use?

If you do not know what you are doing looking to those that do is likely to be useful.

 

[Charles Darwin]

Well Neumann KH120s are VERY popular with professionals, with or without a sub.

And they are tiny 2ways with a 5.25" midwoofer.

 

[giralfino]

The chance for the doctors of physics and other rocket scientists is always there to promote good engineering practice.

OK, then as I always suggest for people doing the first project from scratch, do some simulation. Don't buy a driver without simulation. I find that what is written in post #20 (or better, what is linked there) is a very good approach for simulation: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/189847-introduction-designing-crossovers-without-measurement.html

A proper simulation can give a pretty good ballpark. You need to rely on published data, and you need to assume they are correct. An expensive driver has an edge here, because you can confidently assume less variance between samples and thus a better map of the real performance.

But then you need measurement gear. I can't offer a single link explaining what and how to do, but there are some papers on that (one by J. d'Appolito), you need to find, then we can discuss. The really important thing to understand is the basics of a gated measurement, I see too often not gated measurements, and those are basically wrong if not done in an anechoic room.

Ralf

 

[andy19191]

Well Neumann KH120s are VERY popular with professionals, with or without a sub.

And they are tiny 2ways with a 5.25" midwoofer.

They are desk speakers not main speakers. The smallest Neumann main speakers uses a 10" woofer. Even the Neumann 3 way with an 8" woofer is a desk speaker.

 

[Gracol]

Thanks again to everyone for their feedback. Very interesting it is too!! I am always interested in peoples opinions and take everything on board and into consideration.

With regard the finished speaker, I am in no way naive or fool-hardy enough to think I am going to get this right first time no matter how much I read about the drivers and no matter how much I sim the drivers. I fully expect this to be a long term 'tweak, test and listen' experience which I am looking forward to.

I have read through AllenB's thread and have also played around quite a bit with XSim to get to grips with how crossovers work and try to understand what each component does but, at the same time, fully understand that the sim will be reasonably close but further testing, etc... will be needed on the final product. When I get round to building the speakers (hopefully within the coming months) I will buy a mic and obtain the relevant software, etc... needed to test the speakers.

It's an interesting point Andy brings up with regard the cone area and is one of the reasons I asked the question. Looking at the specs between the Satori and SB15NRX30 the specs (to my newbie eyes) are fairly similar despite the smaller size, ie: qts, qes, le, fs, etc... so I thought I would ask the question here to see if anyone could shed some light on the comparison between the two and whether the Satori are worth the extra cash.

 

[Lojzek]

If you do not know what you are doing looking
to those that do is likely to be useful.

My question was rhetorical and you have taken it out
of context, otherwise I agree it could be useful to do
so if the original goal was the same as the one from
professionals.

 

[Lojzek]

Gracol,

once you start simulating with satori 13, you will have to make
your peace with a 1,5 kHz (surround) resonance. It is more offending
to the eyes. I have had a very similar experience with another high
quality drive unit.

 

[Gracol]

Hi Lojzek,

I did notice that. It seems to be a trait on the Satori's (amongst others). I had a look around on the forums, etc... and according to likes of Jeff B and a few others it seems as though it's not a major audible concern? (at least not on the latrger 6.5" driver)
I did actually come across a thread somewhere (I cant remember where now but if i do I will post a link) and your right, it is to do with the surround resonance. One of the SB designers was writing on the thread and was saying it was one of the compromises they chose to 'live with', in favour of improving other areas, and that they felt it wasn't a significant enough of a problem to be detrimental to the sound or usability of the driver.

I guess I will find out if I buy them, lol!!

 

[Lojzek]

Hi Gracol,

and they are right, it isn't a big issue. There is a test on Satori 5" at Medley's
Musings with frd and zma files at the bottom of the page to download.

 

[Gracol]

Hi Lojzek, I have read the test but didn't notice the files before.
I'll take a look and get them, thanks!!

 

[Gracol]

So, after much deliberation which direction to go in for my first build I went ahead and bought a pair of the Satori MW13P's and initial impressions are they sound great!!

I don't know how they compare with the MFC's and NRX's but I can say the natural sound, clarity and bass (for such a small driver) is very impressive and the build quality is exceptional.

I have paired these with Seas 27TBCD tweeters in a 7.5 litre vented enclosure. It's very early days but even with the first mock-up of the crossover they sound great so can only imagine how good they'll sound once they're finished and utilised to their full potential.

I'm looking forward to the next few months playing around and tweaking these!!

 

[wintermute]

enjoy!

Tony.

 

[fatmarley]

enclosure. It's very early days but even with the first mock-up of the crossover they sound great so can only imagine how good they'll sound once they're finished and utilised to their full potential

It's good to hear you're enjoying them. I remember how chuffed I was when I first built mine. I proudly said to the girlfriend "what do you think then?" - She brought me down to earth by saying they sounded like cheap 1980s Matsui speakers (In retrospect I think they were worse than that lol)

It took me a very long time to get them right and one of the hardest parts was getting accurate measurements. So read, read and read as much info as you can, would be my advice.

A little tip - IMO the most important and hardest part is getting the vocals right. Hook the speakers up to a tv and watch regular tv and films. If you struggle to hear what people are saying and need to crank the volume up or vocals sound too fruity, harsh or thin. Then 99% of the time it's something wrong with the crossover.
Most people blame the recording when certain tracks sound bad. I know this because I've done it myself. You'll find that as the the crossover gets better, more of your music and films will sound better.

 

[Gracol]

Thanks Tony!

Hehe, thanks fatmarley for the advice! Thankfully the wife hasn't criticised too much.... yet! Lol!
I have started off by having the raw drivers measured in the enclosure to work out the starting crossover.
I'll probably leave them for a couple weeks and see how they go before taking next steps.

 

[incredible80]

I currently want to build a speaker based on Jeff Bagby's Revolution. In my country, the satori that are used in the revolution mini are $200 more expensive than the SB15CAC that are used int the larger Revolution. Is the satori worth the $200 usd price difference?