I plan to build a pair of midfield 3-way active studio monitors. After modelling several 10 inch bass drivers I have found I gravitate towards those providing extended bass, which unsurprisingly tend to be subwoofers.
Considering a bass to mid cross point of 300hz, will a subwoofer like this one reproduce upper bass frequencies adequately enough for accurate monitoring and mixing purposes? Obviously it seems more sensible to build a seperate sub but I like it all in one box, easier to transport.
ATC seem to use the same bass driver in their SCM150 monitor as they do in the SCM0.1-15 subwoofer... hmm...
Considering a bass to mid cross point of 300hz, will a subwoofer like this one reproduce upper bass frequencies adequately enough for accurate monitoring and mixing purposes? Obviously it seems more sensible to build a seperate sub but I like it all in one box, easier to transport.
ATC seem to use the same bass driver in their SCM150 monitor as they do in the SCM0.1-15 subwoofer... hmm...
There are significant differences between woofers and subwoofers as can be seen if you enter the parameters for, say, the SB Acoustics range of similar looking 10" and 12" drivers in your modelling program and compare the results.
Essentially a subwoofer sacrifices performance above about 100Hz in order to improve the performance at the lower frequencies. A "studio monitor" crossing to a 5"(ish) midrange at a typical 300-400Hz would require a woofer and not subwoofer. Some designs do use subwoofers and cross at 150-200Hz but this then dictates crossing to a largish midwoofer (cone area and substantial displacement) instead of a purpose designed midrange. This unbalances a 3 way design and leans more towards a 4 way.
Essentially a subwoofer sacrifices performance above about 100Hz in order to improve the performance at the lower frequencies. A "studio monitor" crossing to a 5"(ish) midrange at a typical 300-400Hz would require a woofer and not subwoofer. Some designs do use subwoofers and cross at 150-200Hz but this then dictates crossing to a largish midwoofer (cone area and substantial displacement) instead of a purpose designed midrange. This unbalances a 3 way design and leans more towards a 4 way.
Avoid the Heavy Lift
Not true! It is in fact easier to move two smaller, lighter pieces than one large, heavier one. Secondly the presence of separate subwoofers permit their placement to match room acoustics. At frequencies above say 80 Hz. is where the satellite monitors should be operated.
Regards,
WHG
Not true! It is in fact easier to move two smaller, lighter pieces than one large, heavier one. Secondly the presence of separate subwoofers permit their placement to match room acoustics. At frequencies above say 80 Hz. is where the satellite monitors should be operated.
Regards,
WHG
In a Studio Setting, what sound do you imagine you will find under 40hz, which is the low E-string on a bass guitar?
Though deep is certainly nice, I think people confuse deep with loud. Deep is deep and loud is loud. Most of what the average listener perceives as deep bass is really just loud bass. Though I should probably look this up, I think the Bass Presence Range, the range where we perceive most of the bass we hear is in the 60hz to 120hz range.
I'm of the view that if you can get your speakers to go down in the range of 30hz you pretty much have everything you need for a vast majority of the music you are likely to encounter.
Again, in my view, and in my experience, below about 28hz you do not perceive the sound as a tone, but rather simply the fuff-fuff-fuff of the bass driver moving. In movie sound tracks, what passes for deep bass is really just a shock wave to make you feel the impact of explosions. It is simply a wall of compressed air thrown at the listener. Yes, technically that wall of air is at sub-30hz frequencies. But for most music that most people will encounter doesn't really go that deep.
What you do get from music in a Subwoofers in not really depth, but rather impact. What a Sub or any other large low-frequency driver does is shift a huge volume of air, and that create both immediacy (meaning sound that can't be ignored) and impact. Better to be hit with a 30hz wall of air than to be hit with a 30hz puff of air.
We have to make a distinction between perceived bass and actual deep bass. If you turn the BASS Control up, you perceive more bass, but the content doesn't actually go any deeper.
In the case of the original poster, I suspect you are going to have to cross very low to stay in the flat linear range of a Subwoofer.
If you look at the Vas specification of your selected driver, it is about 220 liters which is about 7.76 cubic feet. How small did you intend to make your Studio Monitors? I suspect in a reasonably size studio functional cabinet, you are not going to get the ultra-deep bass you would expect from a Subwoofer. The cabinet size will restrict the bass output, so you will be very very luck to get 30hz from the system. If more bookshelf in size and shape you will be lucky to get 40hz, and you don't need a Subwoofer to cover that range. Further, I suspect you will have to cross in the 150hz to 200hz range. Though that would depend in the details of the Sub and how it models.
Though without a frequency response chart on the selected Sub, it is hard to be sure where its linear range is. If you look at Woofers in general, despite their claiming 3khz, 4kz, 5khz frequency range, most of them are only reasonably flat to 1khz. With smaller bass drivers, though not perfect, you can maybe push them up to 2khz. So, the point is, you can't give much consideration to the rated frequency response of any bass driver.
The truest test before you buy a driver is to see a frequency response graph so you can see where it is flat and where the problem areas are going to be, then design accordingly.
On the webpage you linked to is a further link to a frequency response graph of this Subwoofer, but like most speakers it does not cover the 20hz to 100hz range, which is the range you are most interested in, though also the range most effected by the cabinet design. This Sub does seem reasonably flat to about 2khz. Though one should probably not cross that high. It does have a slight Bump just above 2khz before it starts to roll-off naturally.
Also note that this is a DUAL-VOICE COIL Sub with TWO 8 ohm voice coils, that means you either wire it at 4 ohms, in which case it will be a power hog, or you wire it at 16 ohms.
It claims a (Fs) resonance of 20hz, but the graph shows the resonance at about 28hz.
SPH-250CTC Spec Sheet -
Europe Audio
SPH-250CTC Response Graph -
Europe Audio
Lastly, you can do anything, anything your mind can conceive and your wallet can afford, but that doesn't mean it will work well. In this case, it might work. But just because the speaker is rated down to 20hz doesn't mean you cabinet will allow it to go that low, unless perhaps you were planning on very BIG Cabinets.
If we look at a general purpose Dayton Classic 10" Woofer, it has Fs of 29hz, a Vas of 3.93 cubic feet, and a rated response of 25hz to 2500hz.
Dayton Audio DC250-8 10" Classic Woofer
Using Bass Box Pro, they have tried to determine the optimum size for this 10" speakers in a Sealed and a Ported cabinet. This is what they came up with.
Sealed Volume: . . 1.39 ft.³
Sealed F3: . . . . . . 55 Hz
Vented Volume: . . 4.47 ft.³
Vented F3: . . . . . 29 Hz
From this non-Sub 10" bass driver, you are going to need nearly a 5 cubic foot cabinet to get 29hz on the low end.
But then ... that's just my opinion.
Steve/bluewizard
Though deep is certainly nice, I think people confuse deep with loud. Deep is deep and loud is loud. Most of what the average listener perceives as deep bass is really just loud bass. Though I should probably look this up, I think the Bass Presence Range, the range where we perceive most of the bass we hear is in the 60hz to 120hz range.
I'm of the view that if you can get your speakers to go down in the range of 30hz you pretty much have everything you need for a vast majority of the music you are likely to encounter.
Again, in my view, and in my experience, below about 28hz you do not perceive the sound as a tone, but rather simply the fuff-fuff-fuff of the bass driver moving. In movie sound tracks, what passes for deep bass is really just a shock wave to make you feel the impact of explosions. It is simply a wall of compressed air thrown at the listener. Yes, technically that wall of air is at sub-30hz frequencies. But for most music that most people will encounter doesn't really go that deep.
What you do get from music in a Subwoofers in not really depth, but rather impact. What a Sub or any other large low-frequency driver does is shift a huge volume of air, and that create both immediacy (meaning sound that can't be ignored) and impact. Better to be hit with a 30hz wall of air than to be hit with a 30hz puff of air.
We have to make a distinction between perceived bass and actual deep bass. If you turn the BASS Control up, you perceive more bass, but the content doesn't actually go any deeper.
In the case of the original poster, I suspect you are going to have to cross very low to stay in the flat linear range of a Subwoofer.
If you look at the Vas specification of your selected driver, it is about 220 liters which is about 7.76 cubic feet. How small did you intend to make your Studio Monitors? I suspect in a reasonably size studio functional cabinet, you are not going to get the ultra-deep bass you would expect from a Subwoofer. The cabinet size will restrict the bass output, so you will be very very luck to get 30hz from the system. If more bookshelf in size and shape you will be lucky to get 40hz, and you don't need a Subwoofer to cover that range. Further, I suspect you will have to cross in the 150hz to 200hz range. Though that would depend in the details of the Sub and how it models.
Though without a frequency response chart on the selected Sub, it is hard to be sure where its linear range is. If you look at Woofers in general, despite their claiming 3khz, 4kz, 5khz frequency range, most of them are only reasonably flat to 1khz. With smaller bass drivers, though not perfect, you can maybe push them up to 2khz. So, the point is, you can't give much consideration to the rated frequency response of any bass driver.
The truest test before you buy a driver is to see a frequency response graph so you can see where it is flat and where the problem areas are going to be, then design accordingly.
On the webpage you linked to is a further link to a frequency response graph of this Subwoofer, but like most speakers it does not cover the 20hz to 100hz range, which is the range you are most interested in, though also the range most effected by the cabinet design. This Sub does seem reasonably flat to about 2khz. Though one should probably not cross that high. It does have a slight Bump just above 2khz before it starts to roll-off naturally.
Also note that this is a DUAL-VOICE COIL Sub with TWO 8 ohm voice coils, that means you either wire it at 4 ohms, in which case it will be a power hog, or you wire it at 16 ohms.
It claims a (Fs) resonance of 20hz, but the graph shows the resonance at about 28hz.
SPH-250CTC Spec Sheet -
Europe Audio
SPH-250CTC Response Graph -
Europe Audio
Lastly, you can do anything, anything your mind can conceive and your wallet can afford, but that doesn't mean it will work well. In this case, it might work. But just because the speaker is rated down to 20hz doesn't mean you cabinet will allow it to go that low, unless perhaps you were planning on very BIG Cabinets.
If we look at a general purpose Dayton Classic 10" Woofer, it has Fs of 29hz, a Vas of 3.93 cubic feet, and a rated response of 25hz to 2500hz.
Dayton Audio DC250-8 10" Classic Woofer
Using Bass Box Pro, they have tried to determine the optimum size for this 10" speakers in a Sealed and a Ported cabinet. This is what they came up with.
Sealed Volume: . . 1.39 ft.³
Sealed F3: . . . . . . 55 Hz
Vented Volume: . . 4.47 ft.³
Vented F3: . . . . . 29 Hz
From this non-Sub 10" bass driver, you are going to need nearly a 5 cubic foot cabinet to get 29hz on the low end.
But then ... that's just my opinion.
Steve/bluewizard
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.