This I like https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...o-sb12.3-sb-acoustics-12-dual-midrange-3-way/
Acoustic suspention 3 way design.
What is the reasoning for dual mid ranges?
I am a novice speaker builder and would like to execute something like that or similar.
Are there other designs tried and tested utilizing the same make and model drivers, same sizes and specs....? I would like to do the bass bins in separate enclosures, with the upper boxes to rest on top. Why if your asking, its just to simplify the build.
Im serious about starting a speaker project and already invested in a multi channel amp to use in tandem with my 2 channel. and mini DSP.
Amplifiers Nad 120x2 and 35x4, would this be adequate? Im thinking the 2 channel having more heft would be happy powering those 12s and the 4 channel will work well power the upper ranges.
I was going to use an analog crossover but figure the digital will work better for me. I tested things on some 3 way acoustic suspension speakers that were store bought, fantastic. Except power handling is rated 100 watts RMS, they fold under pressure before I can get to levels Im happy with. Almost there, not quite. Clarity and sound separation is great. It really opened up when I removed the internal crossovers. This fueled my desire to get some bigger better greater power handling speakers into my room with some help.
Acoustic suspention 3 way design.
What is the reasoning for dual mid ranges?
I am a novice speaker builder and would like to execute something like that or similar.
Are there other designs tried and tested utilizing the same make and model drivers, same sizes and specs....? I would like to do the bass bins in separate enclosures, with the upper boxes to rest on top. Why if your asking, its just to simplify the build.
Im serious about starting a speaker project and already invested in a multi channel amp to use in tandem with my 2 channel. and mini DSP.
Amplifiers Nad 120x2 and 35x4, would this be adequate? Im thinking the 2 channel having more heft would be happy powering those 12s and the 4 channel will work well power the upper ranges.
I was going to use an analog crossover but figure the digital will work better for me. I tested things on some 3 way acoustic suspension speakers that were store bought, fantastic. Except power handling is rated 100 watts RMS, they fold under pressure before I can get to levels Im happy with. Almost there, not quite. Clarity and sound separation is great. It really opened up when I removed the internal crossovers. This fueled my desire to get some bigger better greater power handling speakers into my room with some help.
Read these in the following order:
crossovers
The Design of Active Crossovers - Douglas Self - Google Books
crossovers
The Design of Active Crossovers - Douglas Self - Google Books
That is known as an MTM aka D'appolito. Midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The want to build is great for all of us, but experience teaches us there is never enough reading done. Please read.
The sound you are most likely looking for is high effeciency. Instead of monster sized amps, a design that not only is loud but can do so without kilowatt amps. High Efficiency Speakers and more to read.
The want to build is great for all of us, but experience teaches us there is never enough reading done. Please read.
The sound you are most likely looking for is high effeciency. Instead of monster sized amps, a design that not only is loud but can do so without kilowatt amps. High Efficiency Speakers and more to read.
Hi,
The dual midranges are because its not easily done with one
small midrange given the current state of available drivers.
Take a look at : https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
But note fully active, if you had 100W for the bass,
30W would be fine for the mid and 10W for the treble.
rgds, sreten.
FWIW D.Self knows all the detail but none of the basics
when it comes to active x/o design. Basically he does
not understand hifi x/o design, active or passive.
There is not one reference to acoustic targets.
The dual midranges are because its not easily done with one
small midrange given the current state of available drivers.
Take a look at : https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus
But note fully active, if you had 100W for the bass,
30W would be fine for the mid and 10W for the treble.
rgds, sreten.
FWIW D.Self knows all the detail but none of the basics
when it comes to active x/o design. Basically he does
not understand hifi x/o design, active or passive.
There is not one reference to acoustic targets.
With a passive crossover you do not want to dissipate lots of power into a resistor in order to reduce the woofer's output to match an inefficient midrange driver. Using two midrange drivers raises the midrange output to avoid this problem. It is not an issue with an active crossover where you would probably opt for one midrange driver.
In the title you say medium but the SB12.3 is a large floorstanding speaker. An example of a more medium sized speaker using an active crossover. The woofer in this design has a better motor than the one used by the SB12.3 and is designed for medium sized ported cabinets.
Good sources for designing multiway speakers with minidsp (including some basic stuff)
Stereo 3/4way Xover
miniDSP tutorials
Stereo 3/4way Xover
miniDSP tutorials
I have looked for alternatives with smaller mid bass but suitable bass drivers I found are rated just 60w. My reasoning behind the ones in my link is greater power handling (and output) with values more suited towards sealed chambers, not bass drivers designed to work with both sealed and vented. Im pretty sure I want to avoid dual purpose drivers here.
If power becomes a concern its not an issue I have two more power amps on the side not being used. Each high current 115x2 and 100x2. Also the Nad is bridgable to 70x2.
If I can find a similar design that employs smaller drivers suited for an ALL sealed environment I would be just as happy to take it on if it outputs the SPL I am after.
I read so much, knowledge is valuable. I think I have enough to begin but will never stop reading. I just need a little break. I didn't mean to be rude either.
If power becomes a concern its not an issue I have two more power amps on the side not being used. Each high current 115x2 and 100x2. Also the Nad is bridgable to 70x2.
If I can find a similar design that employs smaller drivers suited for an ALL sealed environment I would be just as happy to take it on if it outputs the SPL I am after.
I read so much, knowledge is valuable. I think I have enough to begin but will never stop reading. I just need a little break. I didn't mean to be rude either.
It looks like something I could be happy with, size and aesthetics are pleasing. Except for that fact. I have spendors that I favor as for a vented design. I dont wish for any more. My goal is to execute strictly acoustic suspension at this time. That size of linked speaker is ideal, really.
The pages on mini DSP and other I found helpful in my prior researching. Saved for future reference.
The design you linked to is 12" driver in a large sealed cabinet. A 12" driver in a typical acoustic suspension design (e.g. AR3a) would have more of a medium sized sealed cabinet. If you are happy with the large size of the sealed cabinet then the cheaper SB 12" is a good value driver. The more expensive 12" SB driver will get you a smaller box, better performance at the top end and possibly a bit more SPL.
SPL at low frequencies is generally what is difficult and expensive. A sealed design will perform significantly less well here compared to a ported design and so a sealed design will tend to need a larger diameter woofer compared to an equivalent ported design. Leading to a worse performance at the upper end of the woofer's response. Requiring a larger midrange to crossover lower. The larger midrange will want to crossover lower to the tweeter. Which may stretch the tweeter. Lots of juggling and compromises.
SPL at low frequencies is generally what is difficult and expensive. A sealed design will perform significantly less well here compared to a ported design and so a sealed design will tend to need a larger diameter woofer compared to an equivalent ported design. Leading to a worse performance at the upper end of the woofer's response. Requiring a larger midrange to crossover lower. The larger midrange will want to crossover lower to the tweeter. Which may stretch the tweeter. Lots of juggling and compromises.
Im aware of the trade offs and compromises. Priority is tight clean authoritative bass snap that I cant get enough of while Im listening. Thats #1 on my wish list. I have a pair of high end subs for added impact but speakers that sound good and have some impact of there own without subs on would make me very very happy. Reference levels or close to reference levels arent that high up on my list. I will be content with speakers that maintain there composure and deliver a little more slam compared to my current.
Guide me where to find 8 or 10 inch woofers with a high enough QES to categorize them better suited for acoustic suspension and handle adequate power. That is the million dollar question. Even better some with tried plans to go with them. But I think I can make do and manage the bass bins without a write up. I can spend a couple hundred on mid basses. If I can get those ordered I can get my bass cabinets started. I will be happy to document and illustrate all my progress as I go and ask questions and opinions as they come up.
Guide me where to find 8 or 10 inch woofers with a high enough QES to categorize them better suited for acoustic suspension and handle adequate power. That is the million dollar question. Even better some with tried plans to go with them. But I think I can make do and manage the bass bins without a write up. I can spend a couple hundred on mid basses. If I can get those ordered I can get my bass cabinets started. I will be happy to document and illustrate all my progress as I go and ask questions and opinions as they come up.
If a 100+ litre cabinet is fine and a largish midrange is fine then the cheaper SB Acoustics 12" woofer looks a good choice.
An 8" in a sealed cabinet without a subwoofer is going to be light on bass extension and SPL. Two will help with the SPL but not the bass extension. 2 x Dayton RS225-8 will get substantially smaller cabinets, the option of a smaller midrange but the lack of bass extension will mean subwoofers are likely to be required.
An 8" in a sealed cabinet without a subwoofer is going to be light on bass extension and SPL. Two will help with the SPL but not the bass extension. 2 x Dayton RS225-8 will get substantially smaller cabinets, the option of a smaller midrange but the lack of bass extension will mean subwoofers are likely to be required.
I used the Scanspeak Classic 21W 8555.00 in a 32L sealed cabinet.
It gets me 45hz F3 with fantastic bass, (I augment with sub-woofers for movies though).
My build has given me a compact - 32L three way sealed active pair of speakers that I love. - Have a look at my build thread for more info.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...r-anyone-spot-any-probs-before-i-start-5.html
I have just fitted some new solid oak baffles for improved diffraction and CLD driver isolation, I have no regrets regarding my driver choices.
It gets me 45hz F3 with fantastic bass, (I augment with sub-woofers for movies though).
My build has given me a compact - 32L three way sealed active pair of speakers that I love. - Have a look at my build thread for more info.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...r-anyone-spot-any-probs-before-i-start-5.html
I have just fitted some new solid oak baffles for improved diffraction and CLD driver isolation, I have no regrets regarding my driver choices.
Here a nice sealed 3-way diy-project with SLS12", in Finnish but I can help if someone wants. Tight sealed bass with some floor gain. Easy to do as active. Can play loud bot not crazy loud.
Kaiutinrakennusohje - Kolmitieklassikko - perinteinen lattiakaiutin 12-tuumaisella bassolla | AudioVideo.fi
Kaiutinrakennusohje - Kolmitieklassikko - perinteinen lattiakaiutin 12-tuumaisella bassolla | AudioVideo.fi
Very nice!! There is no need to translate you can just drop them off in my living room and I will test drive them
I really like the looks of these and specs, they seem to be a good woofer for my wants. I didn't mention it but paper has also been my preference in the past.
How do you think it would work with my vision of a 3 way active acoustic suspension? Seas CA22RNX H1288-08 Woofer - Prestige Series Woofer
I hadnt thought of it until now but price is right. How about those in tandem paralleled in series? My amps can also handle 4 ohms no sweat. Thats 2 seas CA22RNX H1288-08 per speaker. Is it that simple or would doing this complicate things and throw off sound? Would it be easier to get right with just one woofer?
How do you think it would work with my vision of a 3 way active acoustic suspension? Seas CA22RNX H1288-08 Woofer - Prestige Series Woofer
I hadnt thought of it until now but price is right. How about those in tandem paralleled in series? My amps can also handle 4 ohms no sweat. Thats 2 seas CA22RNX H1288-08 per speaker. Is it that simple or would doing this complicate things and throw off sound? Would it be easier to get right with just one woofer?
Comparing a pair of the SEAS 8" drivers against the cheaper of the 12" SB Acoustics drivers:
- both require large boxes of 100 litres or more
- the SEAS will work better at higher frequencies
- similar maximum SPL when not exceeding xmax
- at full power the SEAS exceeds xmax below about 80 Hz whereas the SB exceeds it's larger xmax below about 45 Hz
- at lower power the SEAS rolls off above 50 Hz whereas the SB rolls off at about 35 Hz.
- the SB is about 10% cheaper
Without subwoofers the SB is a much better choice. With subwoofers things are closer but then one wouldn't opt for woofer cabinets that large, or a 12" that inefficient or 2 x 8" drivers requiring that large volume.
If you want to see this sort of thing for yourself then download a free program like WinISD, type in the TS parameters for the two drivers and look at the results while tweaking a few parameters.
Im having technical difficulties downloading the program, this needs some tuning. Thanks very much for doing the data entry. Sadly the larger SBs might be out, just because I might not be able to give them enough space to function at there best until we move into our house which is still a couple of years away.
Im reading through bushmeisters link and like what I see. I have a couple months to make a decision and appreciate all the suggestions. Please keep them flowing.
Paul Klipsch - "We live in the midrange" - Make it a good one.
The Satori 6.5" midbass(MW16P) with acoustic LR4 Xover at 1800Hz to SB29RDNC tweeter is a great combination of well reviewed drivers. Trimming the SB29 faceplace to overlap the Satori reduces the C-to-C and this reduces lobing. A 12" like the SB Acoustics woofer would complete this 3-way.
Consider a clone of the Pass Labs SR-2 with ~3cuft for the SB12 supporting both sealed and ported options.
------why----
If you have a modest volume room, a sealed box SB12 with MiniDSP bass extension plus room equalization will produce the best total listening experience, at the cost of ~ 200watts into the SB12 for loud deep bass(10x power boost at 30Hz).
If you have a medium size room, a ported SB12 is simple 3-way enjoyment.
If you have a large room, you will need a subwoofer(s) for under 60Hz, so use the SB12 in the sealed box and transfer the 60Hz sub-bass duty.
---------
Cabinet design with MiniDSP:
1) MiniDSP handles time alignment delays.
2) Cabinet shape can focus on edge diffraction and C-to-C lobe issues.
...multi-angle beveled baffle edges
3) Butt tweeter to midrange. Trim T face plate if possible
...MiniDSP cannot help C-to-C lobe issues
4) MiniDSP provides strong support for LR4 and Butterworth
...Symmetrical acoustic LR4 is best first experiment
5) Single TMW cabinet allows woofer to use volume around midrange box. Smaller total size. A seperate TM box + W box can match SR2 style.
6) For the freq range of the SB12, an open/close option round port with inside and outside radius is the best DIY choice.
The well engineered SR-2 design from Pass Labs has modest construction complexity and good style. A similar 2-box construction could be an option. TM in top truncated traposoid. W in beveled edges baffle bottom.
The Satori 6.5" midbass(MW16P) with acoustic LR4 Xover at 1800Hz to SB29RDNC tweeter is a great combination of well reviewed drivers. Trimming the SB29 faceplace to overlap the Satori reduces the C-to-C and this reduces lobing. A 12" like the SB Acoustics woofer would complete this 3-way.
Consider a clone of the Pass Labs SR-2 with ~3cuft for the SB12 supporting both sealed and ported options.
------why----
If you have a modest volume room, a sealed box SB12 with MiniDSP bass extension plus room equalization will produce the best total listening experience, at the cost of ~ 200watts into the SB12 for loud deep bass(10x power boost at 30Hz).
If you have a medium size room, a ported SB12 is simple 3-way enjoyment.
If you have a large room, you will need a subwoofer(s) for under 60Hz, so use the SB12 in the sealed box and transfer the 60Hz sub-bass duty.
---------
Cabinet design with MiniDSP:
1) MiniDSP handles time alignment delays.
2) Cabinet shape can focus on edge diffraction and C-to-C lobe issues.
...multi-angle beveled baffle edges
3) Butt tweeter to midrange. Trim T face plate if possible
...MiniDSP cannot help C-to-C lobe issues
4) MiniDSP provides strong support for LR4 and Butterworth
...Symmetrical acoustic LR4 is best first experiment
5) Single TMW cabinet allows woofer to use volume around midrange box. Smaller total size. A seperate TM box + W box can match SR2 style.
6) For the freq range of the SB12, an open/close option round port with inside and outside radius is the best DIY choice.
The well engineered SR-2 design from Pass Labs has modest construction complexity and good style. A similar 2-box construction could be an option. TM in top truncated traposoid. W in beveled edges baffle bottom.
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