Dynaudio Focus 110 and 140 Crossover Comparison Details - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th January 2015, 02:12 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Default Dynaudio Focus 110 and 140 Crossover Comparison Details

Hi All,
Good day, I know there are a lot of great talent here. So I would really appreciate your answers, feedbacks, and comments on the questions base on the attached Picture layout of both Dynaudio Focus 110 and 140 Crossover schematic.

Question:
1) Circuit of Varistor + L4 + 27uF + 10 ohm is a band pass or notch filter for the resonance frequency of the tweeter?
- I believe the varistor is the fail safe for the amp consider irregularity of electrolyte cap, is it correct?
- Consider the temperament of the electrolyte, what can we expect of the sound when dissipation factor is high or irregular?
- Can we perceive the midrange may have some harshness because of non linear behavior of the electrolyte?

2) Circuit 6.8ohm + 1.5uF is for the rising impedance of the tweeter in higher frequency?
- Sound wise, what can we perceive if we do not treat this rising impedance, considering the amp will not compensate?
- What is your opinion on the sound for well flatten rising impedance?

3) Can I consider the lattice filter of 2 pcs caps and 2pcs Inductors is theoretically to have no contribution to any additional resistance, capacitance, phase, or inductance to the tweeter + and -?
- Is the 10uF of the Focus 140 means a wider range of high frequency being subjected to this time delay? If not what is the increased capacitance do?

4) What is your opinion over the additional 22 ohm resistor(not in the Focus 110 crossover) in the crossover for Focus 140 over the Focus 110?
- Does it mean the Focus 140 trying to regulate 2 frequency peaks in the high frequency range after the 4.7uF 1st order cross?
- Is it better to flatten the impedance peak of Focus 140 using only 1 parallel resistor only instead of 2?
- Why do we need the additional 22 ohm resistor in the Focus 140 circuit?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Dynaudio-Focus-110n140.JPG (49.9 KB, 250 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 09:02 AM   #2
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
diyAudio Member
 
Lojzek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Croatia
How do you know this is the schematic of said products?

There is still project data available for vintage Dynaudio DIY speakers
that employ almost the same filter solution with obviously different
part values.

Are you sure this is a varistor in series with RLC?

In general, your best way to learn what filter does in a circuit
is to simulate with a speaker.

RLC in parallel with amp out, flattens system impedance, does
not change FR. Resistors Rs and Rp define attenuation of tweeter.

What you call lattice and series cap shape response.
Nothing special and I would say unnecessary complicated.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 09:37 AM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Tattoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Laniakea
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrichia View Post
Question:
1) Circuit of Varistor + L4 + 27uF + 10 ohm is a band pass or notch filter for the resonance frequency of the tweeter?
- I believe the varistor is the fail safe for the amp consider irregularity of electrolyte cap, is it correct?
- Consider the temperament of the electrolyte, what can we expect of the sound when dissipation factor is high or irregular?
- Can we perceive the midrange may have some harshness because of non linear behavior of the electrolyte?
This is impedance correction.
The elco is not in series with the speakers and therefore has no audible influence on the sound.

The filter itself is a first order filter (L1 and the 4,7uF cap). If you perceive midrange hardness, that would be my suspect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrichia View Post
2) Circuit 6.8ohm + 1.5uF is for the rising impedance of the tweeter in higher frequency?
- Sound wise, what can we perceive if we do not treat this rising impedance, considering the amp will not compensate?
- What is your opinion on the sound for well flatten rising impedance?
Its is indeed impedance correction. Its there so the filter can do what its supposed to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrichia View Post
3) Can I consider the lattice filter of 2 pcs caps and 2pcs Inductors is theoretically to have no contribution to any additional resistance, capacitance, phase, or inductance to the tweeter + and -?
- Is the 10uF of the Focus 140 means a wider range of high frequency being subjected to this time delay? If not what is the increased capacitance do?
This is an allpass filter. It has a time delay effect.
The speakers use different mid bass drivers, so the allpass filter needs to be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrichia View Post
4) What is your opinion over the additional 22 ohm resistor(not in the Focus 110 crossover) in the crossover for Focus 140 over the Focus 110?
- Does it mean the Focus 140 trying to regulate 2 frequency peaks in the high frequency range after the 4.7uF 1st order cross?
- Is it better to flatten the impedance peak of Focus 140 using only 1 parallel resistor only instead of 2?
- Why do we need the additional 22 ohm resistor in the Focus 140 circuit?
Its a voltage divider, making sure the outputs of both drivers is the same.
__________________
If you search for X, than eventually you'll find X. Hopefully X is the truth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 10:07 AM   #4
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
diyAudio Member
 
Lojzek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Croatia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tattoo View Post
The filter itself is a first order filter (L1 and the 4,7uF cap).
If you perceive midrange hardness, that would be my suspect.
Hi,

the RC circuit in parallel with bassmid increases the steepness
of the LP filter and attenuates higher frequencies. There is no
midrange harshness with commercial Dynaudio products.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 10:18 AM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Tattoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Laniakea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lojzek View Post
Hi,

the RC circuit in parallel with bassmid increases the steepness
of the LP filter and attenuates higher frequencies. There is no
midrange harshness with commercial Dynaudio products.
That RC circuit is impedance correction. It makes sure the filter can do what its supposed to do: Be a first order filter.

First order filters place a high strain on the tweeter witch could be audible? Just guessing here.
I have a very similar Dynaudio design (D28/2 and 17W75XL) and hear no midrange hardness.
__________________
If you search for X, than eventually you'll find X. Hopefully X is the truth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 11:23 AM   #6
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portsmouth UK
Breaking down a complex crossover involves some modelling usually. I did something similar to a B&W Matrix 3:
Could a kind soul please break down this horrid Xover

You have a well behaved 4 ohm (?) polycone bass with a simple ca. 1mH coil and Zobel. Only a few 5-6" woofers will respond to this simplicity, but Dynaudio and Morel are two examples that work.

That crisscross lattice tweeter filter is a standard sort of old group delay equaliser, but interestingly, a simple shunt coil does much the same thing. The filter is also found on the Zaph|Audio - ZD5 - Scan Speak 15W8530K00 and Vifa XT25

So what you have there is second order electrical filters at heart with RC driver impedance correction and some overall LCR crossover impedance correction. And some tweeter attenuation. The Zobel works with attenuation on the tweeter to increase the top-end rolloff. A good Dynaudio archive here:
Dynaudio archive

I would guess the overall acoustic filter is BW3.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 11:32 AM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
Tattoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Laniakea
Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post

So what you have there is second order electrical filters at heart
I see only a first order filter, but I can be wrong.
What are the parts that make up the second order filter?
__________________
If you search for X, than eventually you'll find X. Hopefully X is the truth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 12:19 PM   #8
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portsmouth UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tattoo View Post
I see only a first order filter, but I can be wrong.
What are the parts that make up the second order filter?
On the bass, the Zobel-type RC circuit adds the second order electrical element to the first order coil. It effectively damps the voicecoil too.

On the tweeter, the lattice filter adds an inductance to the first order capacitor.

It's certainly not 6dB/octave overall rolloff. That would sound terrible. But really, it's the wrong way to look at it. You combine the electrical filter with the mechanical filter of the drivers to get something reasonable like 12-18dB/octave rolloff and do your thing with phase alignment, however it works out. The example 5" Dynaudio 15 W-75 has considerable internal damping and very low inductance. A unique sort of driver.

You can see how a second order bass/third order tweeter filter is best combined with natural rolloff below.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Dynaudio 15 W-75.JPG (60.2 KB, 185 views)
File Type: png Natural Response versus Filtered response.PNG (19.8 KB, 176 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 12:39 PM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Tattoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Laniakea
Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
On the bass, the Zobel-type RC circuit adds the second order electrical element to the first order coil. It effectively damps the voicecoil too.

On the tweeter, the lattice filter adds an inductance to the first order capacitor.

It's certainly not 6dB/octave overall rolloff. That would sound terrible. But really, it's the wrong way to look at it. You combine the electrical filter with the mechanical filter of the drivers to get something reasonable like 12-18dB/octave rolloff and do your thing with phase alignment, however it works out. The example 5" Dynaudio 15 W-75 has considerable internal damping and very low inductance. A unique sort of driver.

You can see how a second order bass/third order tweeter filter is best combined with natural rolloff below.
I understand what your saying, but I'm not convinced.
If I have time, witch atm I have not, I'll do some measurements and see what the electrical filters are.
I agree on the mechanical+electrical filters stuff.
__________________
If you search for X, than eventually you'll find X. Hopefully X is the truth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2015, 01:16 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Hi guys,
Thanks a lot for the responds. But will be grateful if you answer the questions in my 1st post. Only Tattoo did answer some of my queries that I am looking for. Sorry for be straight forward, don't mean to be rude.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crossover (Network) schematic details for Rogers / Chartwell PM510 (LS 5/8) darkmatter Multi-Way 4 22nd August 2015 10:41 PM
Dynaudio Focus 110 Xover Upgrades larevoj Multi-Way 9 23rd September 2013 07:26 PM
Legacy Focus Crossover swantzilla Multi-Way 0 11th February 2013 03:16 PM
Looking for Dynaudio Focus 140 crossover schematic Joostp Multi-Way 10 28th November 2012 09:25 PM
3 Way crossover details... Lambo240z Multi-Way 310 22nd October 2011 08:53 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:28 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2015 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2015 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2