Visaton drivers are used in some expensive speakers like the WLM La Scala with that surprising retro TW70 cone tweeter:
I thought I'd try using the W200S-8 Bass and DT94-8 Mylar Dome Tweeter.
I modelled them in Boxsim.
30L bass reflex, BW3 filter for good dispersion, and no electrical filter bafflestep at all, since they go by the wall. I tried modelling them flat initially, but the result was way too boomy and bright, so I took out the 3dB bafflestep and added a near 2dB BBC downward slope to the midrange. Surprisingly small coil, eh? You get a lot of room and wall gain with reflex.
Anyway, the pictures speak for themselves. Very nice speaker. Very relaxed presentation with good detail. This circuit works with a lot of drivers.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I thought I'd try using the W200S-8 Bass and DT94-8 Mylar Dome Tweeter.
I modelled them in Boxsim.
30L bass reflex, BW3 filter for good dispersion, and no electrical filter bafflestep at all, since they go by the wall. I tried modelling them flat initially, but the result was way too boomy and bright, so I took out the 3dB bafflestep and added a near 2dB BBC downward slope to the midrange. Surprisingly small coil, eh? You get a lot of room and wall gain with reflex.
Anyway, the pictures speak for themselves. Very nice speaker. Very relaxed presentation with good detail. This circuit works with a lot of drivers.
Attachments
This sort of filter arose by accident when I was working on a Sony E44 speaker which had a lamentably bad mere 3.3uF capacitor first order filter to the tweeter.
I decided that I didn't want to do too much to it, beyond getting some decent rolloff on the drivers to take out the harshness. Because the bottom end and lower midrange were rather good. If you know your drivers, cloth surround and transparent dust cap can sound rather good. High Qms makes for detail and efficiency and low energy storage.
The final filter for the Visaton build was actually identical to the original Sony E44 filter I came up with. The filter is rather elegant in that all you have to do to increase bafflestep is increase the bass coil and decrease the shunt capacitor. To adjust tweeter level, you just change the 6.8R series resistor. Ideal DIY sort of stuff, eh? Because you'd have to get extremely lucky if your modelled build works first time.
I persist in thinking this will work with any reasonably flat high-inductance woofer and efficient tweeter. Because I've tried a few. But I'd rather you didn't derail the thread with your usual negativity. The BW3 response is rather retro in these days of LR2 and LR4, but I can always hear the hole in power response with even order filters.
It's not much different at all from Troels Gravesen's TQWT bass section. Just happens I don't like tank notches much. Trouble with notches is that they can take down the troublesome peaks, but then spoil the rolloff higher up.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I decided that I didn't want to do too much to it, beyond getting some decent rolloff on the drivers to take out the harshness. Because the bottom end and lower midrange were rather good. If you know your drivers, cloth surround and transparent dust cap can sound rather good. High Qms makes for detail and efficiency and low energy storage.
The final filter for the Visaton build was actually identical to the original Sony E44 filter I came up with. The filter is rather elegant in that all you have to do to increase bafflestep is increase the bass coil and decrease the shunt capacitor. To adjust tweeter level, you just change the 6.8R series resistor. Ideal DIY sort of stuff, eh? Because you'd have to get extremely lucky if your modelled build works first time.
I persist in thinking this will work with any reasonably flat high-inductance woofer and efficient tweeter. Because I've tried a few. But I'd rather you didn't derail the thread with your usual negativity. The BW3 response is rather retro in these days of LR2 and LR4, but I can always hear the hole in power response with even order filters.
It's not much different at all from Troels Gravesen's TQWT bass section. Just happens I don't like tank notches much. Trouble with notches is that they can take down the troublesome peaks, but then spoil the rolloff higher up.
Attachments
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The W200S 8" woofer does not stand out to me:
---uses a stamped steel frame
---88db/watt,
---Le = 2.2mH
---15 l/closed ---------- fc 70 Hz/ Qtc 0.7
---30 l/bass reflex ---------- fc 39 Hz
The -8db @2kHz directivity pattern seems to favor a 1200Hz LR4 to a 2" dome like the Viston DSM 50 FFL
The free BoxSim download includes data files for many Visaton drivers.... fun and easy experiments.
Downloads
My radar is set for production samples of Satori 8" and AES Lambda TD8X it use my $110 sheet of Baltic Birch Plywood.
TD8X-8:
Fs: 57hz
Qms:3.9
Vas: 15L
Cms: .3mm/N
Mms: 26g
Rms: 2.4kg/s
Xmax: 8mm
Xmech: 12mm
Sd: 190sqcm
Qes: .33
Re: 6.7
LE: .15mH
Z:8ohm
Bl: 13.8Tm
Qts: .3
1W SPL: 91.4dB
2.8V: 92.1dB
The 8" Visaton W200S has a very high Qms and a light cone, which I think is what makes it work well. But it's not high-end at all.
I'm quite intrigued by these similar £18 Maplin cheapies. They don't look much different to the Visaton.
80W 8in Shielded Bass Mid Range Speaker | Maplin
I must throw one in with that cheapie Monacor HT22-8 Cone tweeter (pictured below) that I go on about next. That could be the Volkswagen of speakers IMO.
But of course, there are some more high end drivers that might bear investigation, for instance:
H1471-08 CA22RNY
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
One of the reasons I didn't notch filter, is it seems to stress a pressed chassis into ringing. So simple works better here IMO. The damped chipboard cabinet really works well enough and I'm not really fussed about the lack of rebating. But don't let me stop you doing better.
FWIW, here's the modelled frequency response. On-axis looks a little rough, but this is a wide dispersion BW3 design at heart remember, so it has off-axis strengths. And overall, makes a very satisfying speaker with a big sound.
I'm quite intrigued by these similar £18 Maplin cheapies. They don't look much different to the Visaton.
80W 8in Shielded Bass Mid Range Speaker | Maplin
I must throw one in with that cheapie Monacor HT22-8 Cone tweeter (pictured below) that I go on about next. That could be the Volkswagen of speakers IMO.
But of course, there are some more high end drivers that might bear investigation, for instance:
H1471-08 CA22RNY
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
One of the reasons I didn't notch filter, is it seems to stress a pressed chassis into ringing. So simple works better here IMO. The damped chipboard cabinet really works well enough and I'm not really fussed about the lack of rebating. But don't let me stop you doing better.
FWIW, here's the modelled frequency response. On-axis looks a little rough, but this is a wide dispersion BW3 design at heart remember, so it has off-axis strengths. And overall, makes a very satisfying speaker with a big sound.
Attachments
There's a limit to how many projects I can do, Mr. Mondo!
Lively metal cones are going to be a lot of work really. I'd be more interested in a classic 8" polycone design next. I still wonder if the rather over polite sound of the polycones I used to listen to was because of the overly big coils used. TBH, the current filter might bear some refinement, because the phase wasn't quite what I wanted. But really I worked with what I had lying about.
Just because I like to keep it interesting, here's a series filter that does much the same thing as my current BW3 design. Some one should try this. It has a sort of built-in notch on the bass.
Lively metal cones are going to be a lot of work really. I'd be more interested in a classic 8" polycone design next. I still wonder if the rather over polite sound of the polycones I used to listen to was because of the overly big coils used. TBH, the current filter might bear some refinement, because the phase wasn't quite what I wanted. But really I worked with what I had lying about.
Just because I like to keep it interesting, here's a series filter that does much the same thing as my current BW3 design. Some one should try this. It has a sort of built-in notch on the bass.
Attachments
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This looks interesting. I've never considered a 2-way speaker project before; all my projects have been single driver full range (including audio nirvana 15"). I know very little about cross-overs.
This combination of 8" woofer and tweeter appeals to me for some reason and I like the description you provide, plus I like that it has an XO at >3kHz.
Which driver choices would your approach accommodate if higher sensitivity (=>95dB) were important ?
Would things change for the better if the XO was moved to line-level ?
This combination of 8" woofer and tweeter appeals to me for some reason and I like the description you provide, plus I like that it has an XO at >3kHz.
Which driver choices would your approach accommodate if higher sensitivity (=>95dB) were important ?
Would things change for the better if the XO was moved to line-level ?
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The Visaton W200S goes quite loud and efficient, as it goes.
The obvious choice for a really efficient woofer is the Eminence Beta 8:
Eminence Beta-8A 8" Midrange/PA Driver
I think I used one some years back, but you'd need an efficient tweeter too.
As a fullrange driver fan, you will enjoy a cone tweeter too. They are special IMO.
Phenolic Ring Tweeter 8 Ohm
It's taking a chance that the tweeter is loud enough here with the Eminence, but the KLH Model 6 was a well-liked speaker. I don't really want to think about active or line level crossovers, just because it's not my bag right now.
The obvious choice for a really efficient woofer is the Eminence Beta 8:
Eminence Beta-8A 8" Midrange/PA Driver
I think I used one some years back, but you'd need an efficient tweeter too.
As a fullrange driver fan, you will enjoy a cone tweeter too. They are special IMO.
Phenolic Ring Tweeter 8 Ohm
It's taking a chance that the tweeter is loud enough here with the Eminence, but the KLH Model 6 was a well-liked speaker. I don't really want to think about active or line level crossovers, just because it's not my bag right now.
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Thanks Steve, interesting options. Did you like the sound of the Beta-8's ?
It does look as if a more sensitive tweeter is needed though. I don't know much of anything about them, but two models came up in a quick look on the storefront. One is the Morel Cat 378 and the other being the cheaper Tymphany H25TG05-8. It is interesting to see what might be possible but without any knowledge of how good these drivers are it seems it could be a crapshoot?
It does look as if a more sensitive tweeter is needed though. I don't know much of anything about them, but two models came up in a quick look on the storefront. One is the Morel Cat 378 and the other being the cheaper Tymphany H25TG05-8. It is interesting to see what might be possible but without any knowledge of how good these drivers are it seems it could be a crapshoot?
It's about 15 years ago that I stuck a couple of Eminence 8" drivers in a Wharfedale Linton reflex box with some, IIRC, Audax TW034 tweeters that Maplin used to sell. I used a stock 2-way crossover. Probably the usual 1.2mH/8uF and 3.3uF/0.3mH stuff.
They were good! Went entertainingly loud too.
Very impressive chassis on Eminence, bass magnet vents and stuff. But you're on your own a bit here. This is a different concept altogether really. And you know my antipathy to soft domes. A metal tweeter with Zobel is tolerable though. Good detail.
I'd like to try this sort of speaker, but not right now. It's quite TQWT- really. I've thrown most of the good ideas for this sort of speaker into this thread. After that, it's up to you.
When I have time, I'll try a 7kHz tank notch on the Visaton bass and a cone tweeter. Might take down cone breakup a bit. Might make it sound worse. Tanks look like the below. Part of the repertoire.
They were good! Went entertainingly loud too.
Very impressive chassis on Eminence, bass magnet vents and stuff. But you're on your own a bit here. This is a different concept altogether really. And you know my antipathy to soft domes. A metal tweeter with Zobel is tolerable though. Good detail.
I'd like to try this sort of speaker, but not right now. It's quite TQWT- really. I've thrown most of the good ideas for this sort of speaker into this thread. After that, it's up to you.
When I have time, I'll try a 7kHz tank notch on the Visaton bass and a cone tweeter. Might take down cone breakup a bit. Might make it sound worse. Tanks look like the below. Part of the repertoire.
Attachments
Hi,
Steer well clear of all Maplins"hifi" drivers nowadays, they are awful.
If you want cheap in the UK nowadays, here can be quite good :
Crossover components, Cabinet parts items in willys-hifi loudspeaker spares store on eBay!
This kit : Speaker Kit 3 : 2x Peerless SKO204PP + 2x Monacor DT99 + 2x Crossovers NEW | eBay
For an 8" 2 way is about the best you can do cheap in the UK, if
you want a pair of speakers that looks like a pair of AudioNotes :
It needs that sort of cabinet size to be similarly tuned to ~ 33Hz.
(Like the AN's, its best to assume the x/o has little to no BSC.)
It can be built about half the size sealed.
rgds, sreten.
Steer well clear of all Maplins"hifi" drivers nowadays, they are awful.
If you want cheap in the UK nowadays, here can be quite good :
Crossover components, Cabinet parts items in willys-hifi loudspeaker spares store on eBay!
This kit : Speaker Kit 3 : 2x Peerless SKO204PP + 2x Monacor DT99 + 2x Crossovers NEW | eBay
For an 8" 2 way is about the best you can do cheap in the UK, if
you want a pair of speakers that looks like a pair of AudioNotes :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It needs that sort of cabinet size to be similarly tuned to ~ 33Hz.
(Like the AN's, its best to assume the x/o has little to no BSC.)
It can be built about half the size sealed.
rgds, sreten.
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