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Old 13th November 2014, 08:59 PM   #1
onni is online now onni  Sweden
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Default Possible to make a Synergy/Unity with high WAF?

I've been intrigued by the idea of a Synergy or Unity horn (what's the difference?) for a few weeks. One question though:

Has anyone made one with WAF in mind?

They obviously need to be quite large, but maybe only the horn and not the enclosure? I had an idea today that if I build one with mids that can handle 150 Hz -> 1500 Hz and a compression driver for 1500 Hz -> 20 kHz it should be able to be used together with the dual subwoofer/media console I'm building (link to build thread). I think the mids need to be small so that the enclosure ends up being small. I did a first very simple rendering of a 60x60 deg horn with directivity controlled to ~600 Hz because it was easiest to CAD. A 80x60 horn would probably be better and would be less deep. The enclosure is tilted 5 deg to compensate for it being a little to close to the floor.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

I think it looks kinda cool...

The design goals would be:
1. Usable with 50 l L26ROY subwoofers (cross at about 150 Hz?).
2. Less than 50 cm deep.
3. Directivity controlled as deep as possible, probably not possible to get lower than 500 Hz. Floor and ceiling bounce important to remove -> 40 deg vertical?
4. Cross over using miniDSP 2x8.
5. Sensitivity above 90 dB/W 1 m.
6. Max SPL above 110 dB 1 m (my subwoofers will probably be limited to around that).

All calculations of measurements done with Synergy Calc V5.xls by Bwaslo.

I'm thinking out loud here, has anyone done something similar; a compact synergy horn that doesn't look like it's made for carrying to concerts?

/Anton

Last edited by onni; 14th November 2014 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Added 3 goals. Changed #3 to 40 deg.
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Old 13th November 2014, 09:22 PM   #2
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by onni View Post
1)I've been intrigued by the idea of a Synergy or Unity horn (what's the difference?) for a few weeks.
2)Has anyone made one with WAF in mind?
The design goals would be:
1. Usable with 50 l L26ROY subwoofers (cross at about 150 Hz?).
2. Less than 50 cm deep.
3. Directivity controlled as deep as possible, probably not possible to get lower than 500 Hz. Floor and ceiling bounce important to remove -> 60 Hz vertical?
3)I'm thinking out loud here, has anyone done something similar; a compact synergy horn that doesn't look like it's made for carrying to concerts?
Anton,

1) "Unity" horns are built by Sound Physics, the latter "Synergy" horns by Danley Sound Labs, Tom Danley designs.
2) There are several smallish cabinet designs similar to the above that may appeal to some (perhaps your) wife's aesthetic sensibility.
3) 60 degree vertical is still on the wide (tall) side to lose floor and ceiling bounce, depending of course on listening distance.

The main cabinet portion of the SinTripP (built by Art Welter of Welter Systems, Inc.) pretty much covers your 3 design goals:
SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn
Dispersion is 86 degrees horizontal x 36 vertical, with pattern control to 430 Hz horizontal and 1100 Hz vertical, increasing down to 310 Hz (-6 dB 42.5 degrees off axis) horizontal and 460 Hz vertical with the secondary horn section attached.

Art
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SynTripP & Hypnotic Cycle.jpg (105.8 KB, 290 views)
File Type: jpg SynTripP & Resistance Dance.jpg (121.9 KB, 292 views)

Last edited by weltersys; 13th November 2014 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 14th November 2014, 02:13 AM   #3
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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You might want to read this thread.
Study of a Dipole/Cardioid Bass Horn

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 14th November 2014, 12:07 PM   #4
onni is online now onni  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Anton,

1) "Unity" horns are built by Sound Physics, the latter "Synergy" horns by Danley Sound Labs, Tom Danley designs.
2) There are several smallish cabinet designs similar to the above that may appeal to some (perhaps your) wife's aesthetic sensibility.
3) 60 degree vertical is still on the wide (tall) side to lose floor and ceiling bounce, depending of course on listening distance.

The main cabinet portion of the SinTripP (built by Art Welter of Welter Systems, Inc.) pretty much covers your 3 design goals:
SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn
Dispersion is 86 degrees horizontal x 36 vertical, with pattern control to 430 Hz horizontal and 1100 Hz vertical, increasing down to 310 Hz (-6 dB 42.5 degrees off axis) horizontal and 460 Hz vertical with the secondary horn section attached.

Art
1. Alright, but they have similar behavior/construction?
2. Do you have any links for inspiration?
3. I did a sketch, and you are correct, 40 deg is substantially better:
Click the image to open in full size.
Problems with both floor and ceiling bounce.

Click the image to open in full size.
Problem with ceiling bounce partially removed.

Click the image to open in full size.
A lot better. The dimensions are roughly correct for my living room, the circle is my head when sitting in my couch.

The purpose of the secondary horn is both to controll directivity deeper and to reduce diffraction, correct? How about making a large roundover (~50 mm radius) instead? That might be more visually pleasing and should adress both issues. Could probably use PVC-piping for that. Maybe it would give the speaker a retro feeling:
Click the image to open in full size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
You might want to read this thread.
Study of a Dipole/Cardioid Bass Horn

Click the image to open in full size.
This is a great example! It is way to big (for me), but other than that a very nice design. Is it a good idea to scale this down to say 50 cm wide, 30-40 cm high, 20-40 cm deep and use 4-5" mids and still achieve something that reaches ~150 Hz?
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Old 14th November 2014, 05:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onni View Post
1. Alright, but they have similar behavior/construction?
2. Do you have any links for inspiration?
3. I did a sketch, and you are correct, 40 deg is substantially better.
4.The purpose of the secondary horn is both to controll directivity deeper and to reduce diffraction, correct?
5. How about making a large roundover (~50 mm radius) instead?
6.Is it a good idea to scale this down to say 50 cm wide, 30-40 cm high, 20-40 cm deep and use 4-5" mids and still achieve something that reaches ~150 Hz?
1. Yes, though there are no other similar designs that have all the features of the SynTripP.
2. Google "Synergy DIY" or "Unity DIY" and you will see many, William Cohan, Bwaslo etc. might interest you.
3. Yes.
4. Those two features as well as reduction of low-mid "waistbanding", a narrowing pattern generally just above the frequency where the horn starts loosing pattern control.
5. Other than difficulty of construction, nothing stopping you from using large roundovers on the secondary horn flare.
6. Pattern control can't be "scaled down", so if you desire it to a relatively low frequency, a large horn mouth is needed. The SynTripP offers two choices, a large, uncompromised mouth (of the "Golden Ratio"), or a smaller exit that uses the grill frame as a short secondary horn roundover. As can be seen in the polar response, both have good control, but the larger horn has pattern control to a much lower frequency.

Art

Last edited by weltersys; 14th November 2014 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 14th November 2014, 07:28 PM   #6
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Location: Switzerland
I know an alternative: Look for a wife with high UAW. *

Regards

Charles




*Unity Acceptance Willingness
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Old 14th November 2014, 10:04 PM   #7
Zero D is offline Zero D  United Kingdom
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Upgrade the W or GF to one who digs this stuff
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Old 15th November 2014, 06:03 PM   #8
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Location: San Diego
Quote:
Originally Posted by onni View Post
I've been intrigued by the idea of a Synergy or Unity horn (what's the difference?) for a few weeks. One question though:

Has anyone made one with WAF in mind?

They obviously need to be quite large, but maybe only the horn and not the enclosure? I had an idea today that if I build one with mids that can handle 150 Hz -> 1500 Hz and a compression driver for 1500 Hz -> 20 kHz it should be able to be used together with the dual subwoofer/media console I'm building (link to build thread). I think the mids need to be small so that the enclosure ends up being small. I did a first very simple rendering of a 60x60 deg horn with directivity controlled to ~600 Hz because it was easiest to CAD. A 80x60 horn would probably be better and would be less deep. The enclosure is tilted 5 deg to compensate for it being a little to close to the floor.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

I think it looks kinda cool...

The design goals would be:
1. Usable with 50 l L26ROY subwoofers (cross at about 150 Hz?).
2. Less than 50 cm deep.
3. Directivity controlled as deep as possible, probably not possible to get lower than 500 Hz. Floor and ceiling bounce important to remove -> 40 deg vertical?
4. Cross over using miniDSP 2x8.
5. Sensitivity above 90 dB/W 1 m.
6. Max SPL above 110 dB 1 m (my subwoofers will probably be limited to around that).

All calculations of measurements done with Synergy Calc V5.xls by Bwaslo.

I'm thinking out loud here, has anyone done something similar; a compact synergy horn that doesn't look like it's made for carrying to concerts?

/Anton
Anton,

I've built a lot of small Unity horns.
I wasn't doing it for WAF, but to squeeze it into a car.

Here's some pics.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
This one is from '08. Probably the most polished one. (Again, I'm terrible at WAF, but I'm good at making Unity horns small.)

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Here's an incomplete one from 2012 that used push-pull midranges

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Here's one from '09 that was designed to go under the dash of a car, so it's about 6cm tall


There's another five or six of these :P

I've built a LOT of small Unity horns. If you want to see the details, just look for the threads that I've started on diyaudio and diymobileaudio.com. The threads on diymobileaudio.com are generally more detailed, because I was really trying to get people excited about Unity horns in the car.


As for the question of "does it work?" Yeah, it definitely works. The commercial Synergy horns are designed to produce something like 120dB with an F3 of 100hz. If you're willing to bump the F3 up to 300 or 400hz, you can reduce the footprint to next to nothing. Even better, if you use an existing boundary you can have your cake and eat it too. I've designed Unity horns that have a mouth of about 12" wide that will play down to 100hz if you put them in a corner.
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Old 15th November 2014, 06:31 PM   #9
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Diego
Quote:
Originally Posted by onni View Post
I've been intrigued by the idea of a Synergy or Unity horn (what's the difference?) for a few weeks. One question though:

Has anyone made one with WAF in mind?

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

I think it looks kinda cool...

The design goals would be:
1. Usable with 50 l L26ROY subwoofers (cross at about 150 Hz?).
2. Less than 50 cm deep.
3. Directivity controlled as deep as possible, probably not possible to get lower than 500 Hz. Floor and ceiling bounce important to remove -> 40 deg vertical?
4. Cross over using miniDSP 2x8.
5. Sensitivity above 90 dB/W 1 m.
6. Max SPL above 110 dB 1 m (my subwoofers will probably be limited to around that).

All calculations of measurements done with Synergy Calc V5.xls by Bwaslo.

I'm thinking out loud here, has anyone done something similar; a compact synergy horn that doesn't look like it's made for carrying to concerts?

/Anton
On a side note, I ran over and took a pic of my living room for you. It's pretty close to what you have pictured. I live in San Diego, one of the most expensive zip codes in America, and due to the high cost of living I really really have to bend over backwards to fit speakers into a room. My home is probably 40% the size that most people have.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

The speaker in the center is a Kef coax. The speakers on the side are a diy design I'm working on, documented in a thread called "LX Mini Homage". I have some unfinished Synergy horns and some Gedlee Summas in the garage. They're too big for this room.

Though there's no TV in the pic, this is a home theater; I use a projector to throw a 3.5M image, right above that shelf.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 15th November 2014 at 06:34 PM.
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