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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn
SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn
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Old 10th November 2014, 07:29 PM   #21
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Never thought of that possibility. Maybe VC windings are clockwise vs counter clockwise or vice versa?
Depending on the magnetic gap lines of flux orientation, either clockwise or counter clockwise windings can result in a + signal moving the diaphragm forward.

It is possible for a voice coil to be flipped in manufacture, which reverses the winding direction and polarity. I once received a factory recone that had that problem, since then I have always checked woofers with a 9 volt battery to confirm correct polarity before closing the box.

The diaphragm is usually impossible to see on a HF driver, and even if visible the movement is generally too little to be detected by eye with a battery test, though the "click" noise it makes at least tells you if it works or not.

Still awaiting Celestion engineering to answer several questions regarding the ferrofluid used in the CDX14-3050 magnetic gap before I correct the polarity reversal. "Dr.Decibel" from Celestion did confirm that there was no change in polarity convention between the 8 and 16 ohm diaphragms and that + voltage applied to the red terminal makes the diaphragm move towards the throat, but has not confirmed whether ferrofluid is used in both the 16 ohm variant and the standard 8 ohm.

Last edited by weltersys; 10th November 2014 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 11th November 2014, 06:54 AM   #22
Ferrit37 is offline Ferrit37  United States
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Hey Art,
can't you measure the impulse response with Smaart to determine polarity of the HF?
Hint, make sure the rest of your Smaart rig polarity is okay "always test the testers"
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Old 11th November 2014, 02:03 PM   #23
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Originally Posted by Ferrit37 View Post
Hey Art,
can't you measure the impulse response with Smaart to determine polarity of the HF?
Hint, make sure the rest of your Smaart rig polarity is okay "always test the testers"
I looked at the phase response in Smaart and determined I'd put the diaphragm in upside down .
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Old 11th November 2014, 02:06 PM   #24
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn
In REW or Holmimpulse, flipping polarity of wiring will show up as an negative going impulse response peak. So yes, that can work very well.
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Old 11th November 2014, 02:37 PM   #25
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Nate Hansen requested a more detailed chart.
The chart is the SynTripP with secondary horn extension horizontal dispersion measured at 2 meters above ground, mic at four meters. Ground and building bounce makes the response look quite a bit rougher than later tests done at four meters high.
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File Type: png 10:30:14 SynTripP with secondary horn extension.png (221.8 KB, 1744 views)
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Old 11th November 2014, 04:39 PM   #26
natehansen66 is offline natehansen66  United States
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Cool thank you! I'll take a closer look later when I'm not on my phone
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Old 11th November 2014, 05:02 PM   #27
Greebster is offline Greebster  United States
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Those curves look quite nice on my phone

Eagerly await the 4 meter results.
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Old 11th November 2014, 08:29 PM   #28
Zwiller is offline Zwiller  United States
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Congrats Art, you got a winner! Loved the history lesson, references to psychedelic compounds, and the fact other drivers can be substituted with this design. Thanks for sharing and look forward to seeing further development.
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Old 12th November 2014, 06:33 PM   #29
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Originally Posted by Zwiller View Post
Congrats Art, you got a winner! Loved the history lesson, references to psychedelic compounds, and the fact other drivers can be substituted with this design. Thanks for sharing and look forward to seeing further development.
Glad you enjoyed it!

Tests at four meters high will show the frequency polar response is even better than it appears in the past tests, but I have about 50 hours of other work to finish before any more testing will happen, and I'm more excited about a "further development", than further testing of the SynTripP.

Further development will include the "SynTripP 3D" (working title) now in the design stage, stereo sound from a single cabinet. It won't have the output potential of the SynTripP, but will use very affordable components, total cost per cabinet should be in the $100 range.

The SynTripP 3D will use a variant of the old Phantom Stereo concept I was first introduced to by Yanni (Chryssomallis) before he became rich and famous. At the time, around 1975, he was playing with the Minneapolis space rock band "Archangel", a few years before joining "Chameleon", another great rock band.

Yanni had simply connected the "+" of a rear ("Phantom") speaker to the "+" on one side of his receiver amp, the "-" to the "+" on the other amp side, resulting in only the L/R stereo difference information is heard from the Phantom speaker, a kind of "triphonic" effect requiring no encoding. Although I consider it an "effect", the Phantom image can be quite revealing of recording techniques, as L/R phase differences are discreetly heard from the Phantom, while a true mono recording results in no sound. The Phantom has one advantage over standard L/R stereo- no matter where you are in the room you can still hear a stereo image, of sorts. The Phantom connection works fine with all amps that use a common "-" ground connection, but may be problematic on some newer "bridged" amp designs that isolate the "-" from the amp chassis ground.

The SynTripP 3D can be operated in multiple modes:
A) "Wide" mode: a 180 x 40 degree horn requiring only one channel operation.
B) "Beam Steering" mode: Controlled patterns from around 180 x 40 to 40 x 40, requiring a minimum of two channels of amplification and DSP, and up to 26 channels for more precise control in both horizontal and vertical beamwidth, similar (on a small scale) to what EAW's Anya system does.
Robert Scovill is loving the Anya on the Tom Petty "Hypnotic Eye" tour.
EAW: Eastern Acoustic Works | Robert Scovill Talks About Anya at Fenway Park - EAW: Eastern Acoustic Works
Robert has pretty much the same goals in live reinforcement (and recording) as I do, other than that darned weight and size issue that precludes me from using large scale cabinets. I still can't hear the name Anya without immediately thinking of Frank Zappa's "Didja Get Any Onya?", sung by Lowell George on the album "Weasels Ripped my flesh".
C) "90 degree" mode: The two outer side firing horn cells are disconnected from the amplifier and shorted out, limiting the coverage to the 2 (or 3) center cells, requiring only one channel of amplification.
D) "3D Phantom" mode: Left /Right difference signal is sent to the side firing outer horn cells, requiring a minimum of two channels amplification, processing can be either done with a simple passive network consisting of some resistors or potentiometers (volume controls), or with a four channel mixer with one polarity reversed connector. Using volume controls allows the stereo "width" to be completely adjustable.
E) "3D Phantom Dipole" mode: As in "D", but the outer cells polarity is reversed, resulting in a wider divergence of the stereo image from the main output.
F) "Left/Right/Center" mode: LRC from a single cabinet, requiring a minimum of three channels amplification.

Modes A,B & C will be useful when using the SynTripP 3D as "fill" speakers for PA, or as speakers for home theater.

As a musician, having to lug around 2 speakers to achieve stereo is an added burden, especially on postage stamp sized stages, when crammed in a corner, or in a small rehearsal space. Although the spaciousness the stereo image two speakers can provide is great, a single point source for everything but the reverberant content is actually the best way to reproduce vocals and instruments.

The idea for a single "3D" speaker using a line array format had been bubbling around in my head for a while, then on 11/7/14 it occurred to me that it could be done using horns, which will work much better in most of the venues it will be used in. I'd already repurposed one of my Hyperboline speakers to make a pair of mini line arrays:
Dirty Dozen Line Array
I'll be able to use the other three and parts of their horns to make four SynTripP 3D, just need to decide what lightweight (and cheap) woofers to use below 200 Hz or so.

Art

Last edited by weltersys; 12th November 2014 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 13th November 2014, 01:04 AM   #30
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn
Is the 3D thing anything like this?
Foam Core Board Speaker Enclosures?

Yanni wasn't the first to use it Nagaoka has the single speaker stereo SSS concept from way back.
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