Hello
I am intending to biuld a replica of the Tannoy Kingdom 18, the first Kingdom produced from 1997 to 2004.
I had the rare chance to buy some years ago from an official dealer the 12" coaxial drivers, the super-tweeters and the original filters from Tannoy.
I have at last the opportunity to build the replicas I have in mind for years, but need some more informations about the bass drivers and internal volumes for each speakers.
I remember having read that the 12" coax midrange need a closed volume of about 40 liters.
Does anyone have more infos?
I am looking for a pair of the 18" bass drivers used by Tannoy in these speakers. I have heard they should be produced by FANE, but they seem to differ somehow from the Fame 18" drivers availlable today.
Does anyone have the info about these 18" references, brand....and how much volume they need.
The internal TOTAL internal volume of the speaker is 370 liters, but I guess the bass driver does not use it entirely.
By the way, what would you use to build the cabinets?
Are the plans availlable?
Thank you very much in advance for your kind help
I am intending to biuld a replica of the Tannoy Kingdom 18, the first Kingdom produced from 1997 to 2004.
I had the rare chance to buy some years ago from an official dealer the 12" coaxial drivers, the super-tweeters and the original filters from Tannoy.
I have at last the opportunity to build the replicas I have in mind for years, but need some more informations about the bass drivers and internal volumes for each speakers.
I remember having read that the 12" coax midrange need a closed volume of about 40 liters.
Does anyone have more infos?
I am looking for a pair of the 18" bass drivers used by Tannoy in these speakers. I have heard they should be produced by FANE, but they seem to differ somehow from the Fame 18" drivers availlable today.
Does anyone have the info about these 18" references, brand....and how much volume they need.
The internal TOTAL internal volume of the speaker is 370 liters, but I guess the bass driver does not use it entirely.
By the way, what would you use to build the cabinets?
Are the plans availlable?
Thank you very much in advance for your kind help
Hi,
So you have the complete x/o network for all 4 drivers ?
The original Tannoy Kingdom was a four-way dynamic design that utilized a
12-inch Dual Concentric™ driver, a SuperTweeter, and an 18-inch sub-bass
driver, resulting in a 92dB (2.83V @ 1m) overall sensitivity.
Good luck with the bass drivers, I suspect you'd need to mass
load the cone of a typical 18" driver to get to the low bass spec.
I'm not going to spend my time digging out details of the Kingdom.
Ask Tannoy for the 18" drivers specs, and cabinet specs
So you have the complete x/o network for all 4 drivers ?
The original Tannoy Kingdom was a four-way dynamic design that utilized a
12-inch Dual Concentric™ driver, a SuperTweeter, and an 18-inch sub-bass
driver, resulting in a 92dB (2.83V @ 1m) overall sensitivity.
Good luck with the bass drivers, I suspect you'd need to mass
load the cone of a typical 18" driver to get to the low bass spec.
I'm not going to spend my time digging out details of the Kingdom.
Ask Tannoy for the 18" drivers specs, and cabinet specs
Tannoy used the same bass driver in their B475 and (whatever the one with two 18's was called: B950?). Model number, if memory serves, was 4505 or something like that.
Trapped volume for the concentric doesn't matter.
Instead of doing a full replica, why not do an upgraded version? A current B&C or BMS 18 will be superior to the Tannoy one (I used to own a B475). Drive the bass with its own amp, and active filtering. Use the natural rolloff of the concentric as part of its highpass.
Trapped volume for the concentric doesn't matter.
Instead of doing a full replica, why not do an upgraded version? A current B&C or BMS 18 will be superior to the Tannoy one (I used to own a B475). Drive the bass with its own amp, and active filtering. Use the natural rolloff of the concentric as part of its highpass.
Ermm ..IF memory serves that Product was a Bust .. sales wise.
Telling that.
FEW Tannoys actually Need a deeper bass and the Supertweeter (is Useful) Jury is still out for lunch.
IMO yer barking up a long Dead tree.
Suggest going for a more successful (proven) Tannoy design... They are fairly plentiful.
Telling that.
FEW Tannoys actually Need a deeper bass and the Supertweeter (is Useful) Jury is still out for lunch.
IMO yer barking up a long Dead tree.
Suggest going for a more successful (proven) Tannoy design... They are fairly plentiful.
I agree with Pallas on this one.
There are better woofers although not necessarily cheaper but crossing it actively is a good idea. You can still use the passive for the DC and the supertweeter if you really must use one but level matching the woofer to rest becomes very easy and flexible.
It is a good idea to remove low bass from the DC as it cleans up the midrange quite a bit. Tannoy themselves have done this very successfully a number of times like in the FSM, FSM-U, Buckingham Monitor, 215DMT and the legendary Dreadnought besides the Kingdoms.
There are better woofers although not necessarily cheaper but crossing it actively is a good idea. You can still use the passive for the DC and the supertweeter if you really must use one but level matching the woofer to rest becomes very easy and flexible.
It is a good idea to remove low bass from the DC as it cleans up the midrange quite a bit. Tannoy themselves have done this very successfully a number of times like in the FSM, FSM-U, Buckingham Monitor, 215DMT and the legendary Dreadnought besides the Kingdoms.
I have Tannoy 12" SuperDual in 65L closed box, heavy damped with rigid fiberglass, sitting on JBL 4507 style cabinet with 15" JBL 2225 driver. Tannoy driver is the heaviest monster I've ever seen (circa 25Kg). Driving Tannoys with 300B SE and JBL with 200W transistor. So far the sound is promising with Tannoy m350 crossover and passive 120Hz 2nd order lowpass on JBL. Planning to upgrade caps in Tannoy crossover and to build active crossover for JBL.
Eric can you send me pictures and schematic of original crossover, I would like to try 1st order crossover on tweeter as in Kingdom 18.
Eric can you send me pictures and schematic of original crossover, I would like to try 1st order crossover on tweeter as in Kingdom 18.
Hi Eric, good idea to build your own kingdom, i have the b475 and thinking to build a 300l enclosure i have also t300's and like to build kingdoms also, can you provide foto's and schematic of the crossovernetwork?
I think to stay with the original fane tannoy b475/ 4505 drivers it is safe in regard of the sensitivity thanks a lot
I think to stay with the original fane tannoy b475/ 4505 drivers it is safe in regard of the sensitivity thanks a lot
Well, I'm coming late to this thread, but in case anyone's still checking it, I'm wondering if anyone has made any progress on using the Tannoy SuperDual drivers for DIY projects.
I've got a pair of the Type 3145 SuperDuals (p/n 7900 0496; the 12" used in the T300) on the way, and am wondering the best way to add a LF section (crossed over somewhere between 100 and 140 Hz) that can achieve an f3 of 30 Hz or better while keeping the sensitivity as close as possible to that of the SuperDual.
The plan, so far, is to figure out a passive crossover for the SuperDual (the Tannoy T300 used a 12 dB/oct. low pass and high pass @ 1700 Hz) with an active crossover between it and whatever woofer I use.
My present options—mainly because I already own these drivers—are the Tannoy 3834GG (used in the System 215 DMT) and the TAD TL-1601b (as used in various large-format TAD studio monitors).
In a different design I tried using dual reflex-loaded Tannoy 3112s for LF, but was disappointed:little output below 60 Hz.
Any tips or comments appreciated!
I've got a pair of the Type 3145 SuperDuals (p/n 7900 0496; the 12" used in the T300) on the way, and am wondering the best way to add a LF section (crossed over somewhere between 100 and 140 Hz) that can achieve an f3 of 30 Hz or better while keeping the sensitivity as close as possible to that of the SuperDual.
The plan, so far, is to figure out a passive crossover for the SuperDual (the Tannoy T300 used a 12 dB/oct. low pass and high pass @ 1700 Hz) with an active crossover between it and whatever woofer I use.
My present options—mainly because I already own these drivers—are the Tannoy 3834GG (used in the System 215 DMT) and the TAD TL-1601b (as used in various large-format TAD studio monitors).
In a different design I tried using dual reflex-loaded Tannoy 3112s for LF, but was disappointed:little output below 60 Hz.
Any tips or comments appreciated!
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Since you already got them I'd be inclined to use the TADs.
Seems that like Tannoys they like to be in a large ported tuned low.
In this case 300L tuned to 28Hz would give you a nice EBS response that only drops 3dB between 100Hz and 28Hz which doesn't matter much but can easily be made up by placement or a most basic tone control if you so desire.
But bass really only needs help once it dropped 6-10dB or more.
Seems that like Tannoys they like to be in a large ported tuned low.
In this case 300L tuned to 28Hz would give you a nice EBS response that only drops 3dB between 100Hz and 28Hz which doesn't matter much but can easily be made up by placement or a most basic tone control if you so desire.
But bass really only needs help once it dropped 6-10dB or more.
CharlesDarwin,
Thanks very much for the quick reply! Much appreciated.
I really was hoping to avoid cabinets as large as 300 L and, in fact, TAD allots only 170 L to the TL-1601b driver in its monitor designs.
Perhaps the Tannoy 3834GG drivers in 200 L cabinets?
Or perhaps I should investigate other drivers that might perform well in smaller cabinets.
I guess Hoffman's Iron Law really is iron!
Thanks again,
Joel.
Thanks very much for the quick reply! Much appreciated.
I really was hoping to avoid cabinets as large as 300 L and, in fact, TAD allots only 170 L to the TL-1601b driver in its monitor designs.
Perhaps the Tannoy 3834GG drivers in 200 L cabinets?
Or perhaps I should investigate other drivers that might perform well in smaller cabinets.
I guess Hoffman's Iron Law really is iron!
Thanks again,
Joel.
If size is important there are other options.
A couple of BMS 12S330 per side each in its own 60L cab (27Hz tuning) would give you an almost identical response as a single TAD in 300L.
I am suggesting a couple per side because while BMS is usually reliable and conservative in their published specs the 96dB/1W they claim is ludicrous and the reality is closer to 89-90dB. Two would get you closer to the SuperDuals sensitivity.
Also two 12s give a comparable Sd to one 18.
If you can get them in Canada they should be fairly cheap at least compared to the TADs. In the european market you could sell one TAD to finance 3 or 4 new 12S330.
Alternatively you try a couple of LAB12 per side.
I can't easily find any T/S data for the 3834GG making things a bit harder.
A couple of BMS 12S330 per side each in its own 60L cab (27Hz tuning) would give you an almost identical response as a single TAD in 300L.
I am suggesting a couple per side because while BMS is usually reliable and conservative in their published specs the 96dB/1W they claim is ludicrous and the reality is closer to 89-90dB. Two would get you closer to the SuperDuals sensitivity.
Also two 12s give a comparable Sd to one 18.
If you can get them in Canada they should be fairly cheap at least compared to the TADs. In the european market you could sell one TAD to finance 3 or 4 new 12S330.
Alternatively you try a couple of LAB12 per side.
I can't easily find any T/S data for the 3834GG making things a bit harder.
CharlesDarwin, Thanks for the additional suggestions. I will research the BMS 12S330. I myself also thought of dual Eminence Lab12s per side and there's certainly cabinet plans out there, though both your suggestions would seem to yield something on the order of 93 dB sensitivity. But perhaps that is the best one can reasonably expect. The Tannoy 3834GG uses a 150 L cabinet in the original System 215 DMT II design for an f3 of 35 Hz, though a larger cabinet, say 200 L, might drop that down a bit. Choices, choices. . . Thanks again!
The audible difference between 35Hz and 27Hz is effectively very little since there isn't very much musical contents down there but it does give you bragging rights down the pub!
If you can find out the port dimensions of the 215 that would be the easiest/cheapest way for you. If money is not a huge concern than it goes to looks. With a 15" you'd get a more squat looking speaker and with 2 12s a taller one.
Since you are planning on running the woofer active differences in sensitivity are of less importance. I suspect that either 2 BMS or LAB12 would ultimately go louder since they have more cone acreage and likely higher Xmax than one 15 but you'd probably have to wear ear protection to test that out!
I also suspect that 35Hz is pretty close to the driver Fs so going up to 200L won't give you much extra if at all.
As an aside there was a guy on the Tannoy Yahoo forum who built active 215 clones.
Tannoy recommended he use 24dB L-R to cross the DualConcentric. For 12" the ideal xover point would be around 1200Hz since that is where woofer and tweeter dispersion are the same. It would still need the usual constant directivity horn eq though.
I can't see any reason to NOT use 24L-R to cross between the DC and the woofer(s), both will be well within their linear range so electrical slope will equal the acoustic slope.
If you can find out the port dimensions of the 215 that would be the easiest/cheapest way for you. If money is not a huge concern than it goes to looks. With a 15" you'd get a more squat looking speaker and with 2 12s a taller one.
Since you are planning on running the woofer active differences in sensitivity are of less importance. I suspect that either 2 BMS or LAB12 would ultimately go louder since they have more cone acreage and likely higher Xmax than one 15 but you'd probably have to wear ear protection to test that out!
I also suspect that 35Hz is pretty close to the driver Fs so going up to 200L won't give you much extra if at all.
As an aside there was a guy on the Tannoy Yahoo forum who built active 215 clones.
Tannoy recommended he use 24dB L-R to cross the DualConcentric. For 12" the ideal xover point would be around 1200Hz since that is where woofer and tweeter dispersion are the same. It would still need the usual constant directivity horn eq though.
I can't see any reason to NOT use 24L-R to cross between the DC and the woofer(s), both will be well within their linear range so electrical slope will equal the acoustic slope.
Those BMS are looking more and more attractive if they really can, as BMS claims, yield an f3 of 32 Hz in a 60 L enclosure. They're available @ US$225 each from an American supplier; still haven't found a Canadian source. I noticed, though, that according to the BMS spec sheet, their 60 L cabinet tuned to 27 Hz calls for a 110mm diameter port tube that is also 517mm long! That would be a challenge to fit into a 60 L box! Then there's the American company Radian, who claims their 15" 2216 Neo woofer, in a 4.6 cu.ft. vented cabinet, tuned to 36 Hz (below fs) yields 101 dB sensitivity @ 36 Hz! But I've read some posts on the TalkBass forum that call these specs into question. . . I will definitely start out with a 24 dB/oct. L-R active Xover between the SuperDual and the LF driver, as that was what Tannoy used in the T300 speaker system, to be tweaked as necessary. Thanks again for your help with thinking through the options for this project.
Just spoke to Al at www.usspeaker.com; he acknowledged the unreliability of some of Radian's specs and noted that the company recently came under new owners who plan to re-specify—one hopes more accurately—all of the company's speaker designs.
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