layout for a large concrete studio - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 24th July 2014, 05:40 PM   #1
meeotch is offline meeotch  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Default layout for a large concrete studio

Hopefully, this is the right spot for "room design" type posts. I've got a studio space (as in art, not as in sound) that is both fortunately and unfortunately a high-ceilinged concrete box. Roughly 44' L x 22' W x 18' H, with a 14' deep mezzanine. (See pictures.)

Currently, I've got two large-ish cerwin vega 3-way speakers about 12' off the ground on a ledge in front of the main windows (see second photo), and a woefully underpowered Denon receiver.

Denon DRA-35 Manual - AM/FM Stereo Receiver - HiFi Engine
PopSynth.com Review of Cerwin Vega V and E series 12 inch full ranges

The sound is pretty terrible. If I EQ the heck out of it, I can get a fairly well defined high-mid range - meaning that vocals are discernible and things don't sound muted, though it is sort of an echoey "big hall" sound that's tiring to listen to after only a couple minutes. But unless you're standing right underneath them, the bass is noticeably "thin", and cranking the volume results in a muddy mess.

I realize that this is to be expected, given the makeup of the room. But given the stipulation that I can't blanket the place in foam / shag carpeting, or rebuild it so it's oblong or whatever, does anyone have tips for how to get a cleaner, more balanced sound? Can I mitigate the drawbacks of the space through speaker selection and placement - maybe by clever location of some subs, and getting coverage for the rest of the range with more numerous, smaller speakers instead of hammering the sound through the space from two big ones?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1570.jpg (197.0 KB, 263 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1684.jpg (150.9 KB, 258 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 08:11 PM   #2
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oakmont PA
You need to add 650 sq feet of absorption material (6" thick fiberglass.) Now you can make wood boxes say 4' x 4' by 6" deep with the front burlap or other fabric and fill with fiber glass. You would need 30-40 of those. If you hung the boxes as frames open on both sides you could get away with 15-20 of them. Same lower quantity if you use the hanging style box stood off from the wall 8".

Another method is to use 1/2" hardware cloth 3' wide and roll it into a tube say 16' long and place one in each front corner, then one 10' high in each back corner, and of course the final two on the balcony. That would also work.

The final method is to make a cloth wall hanging or hangings stuffed with fiberglass. You would need 400 to 600 square feet that way.

This took me 5 minutes, at my usual rate you owe me $20.83.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 08:33 PM   #3
meeotch is offline meeotch  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Thanks for the reply. I probably should have been more specific about the shag carpeting - my meaning was that aesthetic concerns are going to trump any ability to fill the entire space with sound baffles. It's primarily a display space, or will be.

If what's needed is fiberglass, though, it might be possible to build out one or more of the walls by a few inches. Or better still, blow the existing walls full of some sort of sound deadening material. (There is currently fiberglass batt in most of the walls, and in the drop ceiling, and it doesn't seem to be helping much.) This, of course, only if having sheetrock in front of the fiberglass doesn't make it moot from a sound perspective. I've heard that open (closed?) cell foam is good for this sort of thing.

Provided that there's a workable strategy from the mitigation end of things, what's the best strategy from the equipment / layout end? I wouldn't expect what I currently have in there to sound great under the best of conditions, so I'm prepared to upgrade. But the budget isn't infinite, so I can't afford to drop $10k on an experiment - mitigation-wise or equipment-wise, unfortunately. It's going to have to build up from affordable chunks that I can test along the way.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 08:37 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oakmont PA
Then you build out a side wall with 2 x 4s fill between with fiberglass and cover with hardware cloth and the burlap or other fabric. You can do 6' - 8' high in drywall and use matching fabric above. $7.00 more
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 09:00 PM   #5
meeotch is offline meeotch  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
The hardware cloth roll option is interesting. Presumably, you mean a tube of fiberglass with wire mesh (hardware cloth) holding it in place. I'm sort of surprised that it would have an effect on the same order of magnitude as covering an entire wall with DIY baffles.

Unless my math is off, 3' circumference gives < 0.5' radius, or about 0.72sf cross-section. Multiply by ~70 linear feet of tube is something like 50 cu ft of fiberglass. A lot less than the 200-300 cu ft for the baffle solution, and certainly less obtrusive. Would this really be as effective?

I think burlap/cloth is right out as a outward-facing wall surface. We need to be able to hang art on the walls. I suppose some moderate sized area could be dedicated to a projection screen, if we can find a fabric that works for both sound & projection applications.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 09:03 PM   #6
GM is offline GM  United States
diyAudio Member
 
GM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Chamblee, Ga.
Another source + forum: Ethan Winer - Home Page

GM
__________________
Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean! As always though, the usual disclaimers apply to this post's contents.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 09:04 PM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Oakmont PA
It is 3' of surface x 70' = 210 but placed in a corner gets extra reflections so it should be fine. You can cover with cloth to make a presentable appearance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 09:20 PM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by meeotch View Post
Provided that there's a workable strategy from the mitigation end of things, what's the best strategy from the equipment / layout end?
Your primary acoustical problem is the direct to reflective ratio in the room is poor, resulting in as you put it an "echoey "big hall" sound that's tiring to listen to".

Your ceiling height makes distributed speakers not a very viable solution, limiting the solutions to acoustical absorption (hanging canvas pictures will help somewhat) or diffusion, or speakers with a narrow controlled dispersion pattern that put sound where you want it, and not where you don't.

The most cost effective (if you don't include your time spent ;^) ) coherent pattern control can be had with DIY Synergy type designs, though old PA speakers with large format horns can be often be found used fairly cheap.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 10:11 PM   #9
meeotch is offline meeotch  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
>> speakers with a narrow controlled dispersion pattern that put sound where you want it, and not where you don't.

This was my initial thought, alluded to at the end of the first post. Ceiling height is pretty extreme in the main space, but the mezzanine is about 1/3 of the footprint, so I have "normal" ceiling heights at that end. On the other end, the ledge/soffit under the windows is another potential mounting point. And of course, nobody is going to be flying around at ceiling height on that side to hear how it sounds above the soffit.

When you say "DIY Synergy", I take it you mean something horn-shaped? Synergy Horn | Danley Sound Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc. Is the intended benefit simply being able to direct sound to particular areas, or does it have something to do with the (pseudo)-point-source characteristic, or...?

Maybe more to the point, is the idea to project sound inward, away from the walls, ceiling, floor, to where people are standing, and have it attenuate significantly before it reflects off of something?

Given that there's not really a dedicated listening/viewing area in this space, it seems like some tricky work - particularly if I want to maintain decent (if not necessarily spatially accurate) stereo separation. I just really like to hear things whoosh from one end of a room to another.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2014, 10:44 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by meeotch View Post
1)When you say "DIY Synergy", I take it you mean something horn-shaped? Synergy Horn | Danley Sound Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
2)Is the intended benefit simply being able to direct sound to particular areas, or does it have something to do with the (pseudo)-point-source characteristic, or...?
3)Maybe more to the point, is the idea to project sound inward, away from the walls, ceiling, floor, to where people are standing, and have it attenuate significantly before it reflects off of something?
4)Given that there's not really a dedicated listening/viewing area in this space, it seems like some tricky work - particularly if I want to maintain decent (if not necessarily spatially accurate) stereo separation. I just really like to hear things whoosh from one end of a room to another.
1) Yes, the DSL Synergys are all shaped like a conical horn. DIY means do it yourself, as many have, though the crossover design is difficult unless you use DSP (digital signal processing) and will require measurement to "get it right" unless you copy a proven design.
2) The point source presented by a properly designed Synergy horn is not "pseudo", it is virtual.
3) Correct, and that can be achieved with many types of large format horns. Horns only have pattern control to roughly the wavelength of the exit diameter, so you can't expect much directivity from say a 6" horn below around 2260 Hz, well above most vocal fundamental frequencies. Go big or don't bother. You can try some large cardboard, foam board, or wood "waveguides" on your speakers to get an idea of how much pattern control helps. The waveguides will require a different EQ than the speakers would normally, they will accentuate the midrange more than upper of lower response. Set the waveguide angle as tight as possible while still being able to see the cones though the listening area. Point the speakers down to head height at the farthest listening position. If you like the results, you can cover the mess with acoustically transparent cloth.
4) In your room you may want to consider using a third "phantom" speaker to provide a stereo image in any position. By phantom speaker, I mean the connecting the + of a rear or side speaker to the + on one amp side, the - to the + on the other amp side, which results in only L/R difference information to that speaker, a kind of 'triphonic" effect requiring no encoding.

You can give that a try with any speaker of similar sensitivity to your CV speakers. Since most recordings mix bass primarily center, the phantom speaker does not need to go low, since LF material seldom will be reproduced by it.

Art

Last edited by weltersys; 24th July 2014 at 10:48 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Photos of large DHT preamps? (Or large amps in general) wicked1 Tubes / Valves 7 18th April 2014 07:19 PM
Fane Studio 5M+5FR - in use by which commercial Studio Monitors ?? tiefbassuebertr Full Range 7 8th December 2013 10:26 AM
Concrete Improvement? (Concrete FE168 EZ) Kwast Full Range 9 20th May 2010 09:32 PM
FS: Large inductors, Large Ports, and Leaky Holes luvdunhill Swap Meet 10 6th March 2009 03:01 PM
What sub for large art studio? seattlerain1 Subwoofers 32 26th September 2007 04:14 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:34 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2