Peerless HDS Tweeter too harsh, (Nomex 164) - diyAudio
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Old 16th July 2014, 02:29 AM   #1
Clausen is offline Clausen  United States
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Default Peerless HDS Tweeter too harsh, (Nomex 164)

Ok...I have posted this issue in a couple places...here's what I have figured out so far. My ears are sensitive...my Old ACI's Sapphire III's (Audio Concept Inc) were DVC and when one VC wasn't working because of a bad resistor, I could here it. (The difference in the volume.) I'm sure probably most here, could too!

My build is the Troels Nomex 164's I increased the R1051 from 1.1 ohm to 3.3 ohm. Still at loud levels it hurts my ears after a time. (CD's not so much.) Also, I listen from my Ipod regularly...so I know that is a consideration.

I am running 2 (or 3 depending on what I play) Adcom 2535 amps, with a B&K Ref 30 Pre-pro) with 200 watts going to my stereo pair!

I really want to build the Elsinores...but until a couple days ago thought these HDS tweeters were too "bright". Now I am sure it has to be the xover.


I used Audyn Plus caps, so I am going to try the Silver Janztens on the tweeter section. (The price difference is $8 each I think, compared to the Supremes)


Also I had issues with the solder strips Troels recommended, but I tested the ohm load on my speaks and they are right at 4.5 ohm so I don't think thats the problem!

I really like the way these HDS tweeters sound...so any help would be appreciated!


PLEASE READ THIS.....I have never listen to and enjoyed music at low to moderate levels like these speaker produce! (I have an 18 month old so I have no choice.. ) In any case I cannot believe how good these sound at low and moderate, or even mid high volumes. It's just when I really crank up the 200 watts that they start to fatigue. The ACI's didn't have this issue!

Therefore I am convinced it's the Cap...keep in mind the harshness is subtle!


Thanks in advance for any input...and thanks for these forums...freaking AWESOME!!!!!
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Old 16th July 2014, 06:12 AM   #2
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Troels Nomex project you have built is by default a non fatigueing
speaker IMO but since you previously owned ACI speaker who was not so
revealling at lower listening volumes, current speakers being brighter
make you feel that way. You can pad the tweeter level as much as you want
and each time you do it, you also make it sound darker which in the end
can end up sounding similar to ACI.

Caps are non issue as long as you are using the same capacitance values.
Make sure your wiring and passive parts values are correct as in the
schematic.
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Old 16th July 2014, 08:15 AM   #3
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I'd definitely double check the wiring and parts. The wrong value of C2011 could cause a harsh sound for example.
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Old 16th July 2014, 08:43 AM   #4
frangus is offline frangus  Australia
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You are not the first to describe that tweeter as bright. Google it. I could never get it sounding right.

Could be something to do with the wide dispersion in the presence region and the small sd. Though some people like it's "vivid" sound, each to their own I guess, just not my cup of tea.

Last edited by frangus; 16th July 2014 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 16th July 2014, 11:28 AM   #5
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I think you're hearing the third order peak of the 830875 at 2.5khz and not the tweeter. This is often the case when listening fatigue is the issue. First impulse is to blame the tweeter.
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Old 16th July 2014, 12:06 PM   #6
pguerin is offline pguerin  France
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Hi Clasen,

Another advice, measure impedance and SPL of the Nomex.
It wil cost you 70 € for a calibrated mic if you are 18, you must have a laptop or a tablet.

As you already know, i own the Nomex164, in my combinaison they're not tiring even at high levels.

The HDS tweeter has a rinsing SPL curve, I think this one reason why JRasmussen has put a waveguide on the Elsinore.
Other have added a RLC network on // tweeter see attachment.

A way to "flatten" the curve of the tweeter is to toe just a little the speaker, maybe 5.

Last advice, have you tried another amp with your Nomex ?
Attached Images
File Type: bmp ScanspeakXover.bmp (103.5 KB, 48 views)

Last edited by pguerin; 16th July 2014 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 16th July 2014, 12:56 PM   #7
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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6" bass plus tweeter is one of those unsatisfying combinations IMO. Troels has crossed over at 3.5kHz, which is uncomfortably close to the 5kHz cone breakup of most 6" woofers. Maybe a sliced cone scanspeak deals with the breakup better, but we are stuck with it here.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Peerless_HDS830875.htm

I did find his tweeter filter a bit odd. It seems to peak at 5kHz. I would lose the 0.1mH coil for sure. You could then increase the input resistor from 3.3R to 3.9R or 4.7R to taste.

It's still going to sound like a 6" bass though. The 5kHz breakup is still there, but the tweeter should sound better. In fact I'd try a Zobel-based filter too. As below. Those sound smoothest of all. This one matches the response of Troels' filter after you lose the 0.1mH coil.

FWIW, I sincerely doubt that changing caps brands will affect all this.
Attached Images
File Type: png Troels Nomex 164 Original Tweeter Circuit.PNG (3.4 KB, 448 views)
File Type: png Troels Nomex 164 Rough Sim.PNG (22.0 KB, 449 views)
File Type: png Troels Nomex 164 Rough Sim Phase.PNG (27.1 KB, 445 views)
File Type: png Modified Nomex 164 Tweeter Circuit.PNG (2.8 KB, 441 views)
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Old 16th July 2014, 02:08 PM   #8
pguerin is offline pguerin  France
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Quote:
I would lose the 0.1mH coil for sure.
I've tried this, sound was worse.

Quote:
I did find his tweeter filter a bit odd. It seems to peak at 5kHz.
Not on my measures :

Click the image to open in full size.

mic distance 1m ,on second woofer axis.


Quote:
6" bass plus tweeter is one of those unsatisfying combinations IMO
The Nomex are the most satisfying speaker I've had

I've simulated and tested few crossover also with SW, the original crossover was the best one with LPAD values 1.2 ohms and 15 ohms.

Last edited by pguerin; 16th July 2014 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 16th July 2014, 03:39 PM   #9
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Clausen, I think it's worth mentioning that these filters are essentially shallow ones. The drivers will distort at high level.

As Lynn Olson remarked:

Quote:
When working with rigid-cone drivers, there are some hard choices to make: if you lower the crossover frequency to minimize driver coloration, tweeter IM distortion skyrockets, resulting in raspy, distorted high frequencies at mid-to-high listening levels.

If you raise the crossover frequency to improve the sound of the tweeter, the rigid-driver breakup creeps in, resulting in a forward, aggressive sound at moderate listening levels, and complete breakup at high levels. (Unlike paper cones, Kevlar, metal, and carbon fibers do not go into gradual breakup.)

With the drivers we have today, the best all-around compromise is a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th-order (12-24dB/Oct.) crossover with an additional NOTCH filter tuned to remove the most significant HF resonance of the midbass driver.
You'd need a three way for really effortless loudness.
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Old 16th July 2014, 11:23 PM   #10
Clausen is offline Clausen  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal GUERIN View Post
Hi Clasen,


Other have added a RLC network on // tweeter see attachment.

A way to "flatten" the curve of the tweeter is to toe just a little the speaker, maybe 5.

Last advice, have you tried another amp with your Nomex ?

I have them toed in...I haven't tried another amp, but I do have a Denon receiver I could try, but I like the RLC idea. What frequency does that filter and can you give me the values...the image is so small I can't read them clearly! It looks like .1 mh, 1 uf 5.5 ohm...I'm probably going to adjust the L-pad also.

Also, thanks System7 very interesting input. I tend to agree that a 3 way would be better and that's what I am leaning toward!


I also read somewhere that this Tweeter is a cross between a fabric and alum dome, and I hate alum domes!


Thanks for all the input. Pascal, I think I'll try the LCR! Also, where in the Xover path would I put that???

Last edited by Clausen; 16th July 2014 at 11:31 PM.
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