I recently bought a microphone (a Behringer B1 condenser, which I believe to be reasonably flat) so thought I'd measure my speakers.
The overall level for the tweeter and woofer are reasonably well matched, but there's a sizeable (>6dB) hole at the crossover frequency. I can swap the polarity of the tweeter, I suppose, but that'll just mean there's a peak there rather than a null. What's the usual method to clean this up? I suppose I could increase the crossover frequency for the tweeter a little...
The overall level for the tweeter and woofer are reasonably well matched, but there's a sizeable (>6dB) hole at the crossover frequency. I can swap the polarity of the tweeter, I suppose, but that'll just mean there's a peak there rather than a null. What's the usual method to clean this up? I suppose I could increase the crossover frequency for the tweeter a little...
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Hi Suzy
First, I have to ask what it sounds like?
You can create an overlap of the woofer and tweeter by increasing the cap size and decreasing the inductor. Try increasing the cap by 1.5-3.3uF as this will drop the xo point of the tweeter which will overlap the woofer. You can also remove some turns from the inductor to reduce it's value by up to 15%. The question remains will it sound as good which is the main criteria.
I've become quite wary on mic measurements as has led me astray in the past by making a flatter response but killed the speaker sonics. Final tuning here is now done strictly by ear.
What location do you have the mic... in line with the tweeter and 1m away?
First, I have to ask what it sounds like?
You can create an overlap of the woofer and tweeter by increasing the cap size and decreasing the inductor. Try increasing the cap by 1.5-3.3uF as this will drop the xo point of the tweeter which will overlap the woofer. You can also remove some turns from the inductor to reduce it's value by up to 15%. The question remains will it sound as good which is the main criteria.
I've become quite wary on mic measurements as has led me astray in the past by making a flatter response but killed the speaker sonics. Final tuning here is now done strictly by ear.
What location do you have the mic... in line with the tweeter and 1m away?
They sound pretty good. But then they sounded pretty good with the tweeters out of phase and the hole in the frequency response, as well. With the tweeters in phase, the treble still isn't flat. There's a broad region from 2-6KHz where they're down 3-4dB.
Actually, if I look at the published frequency response plots of the microphone I measured them with, the high region from 6-15KHz is likely the microphone, not the speakers.
I'm toying with reducing the series resistor on the tweeter, to bring the level up a couple of dB to compensate. Maybe I should get a properly flat microphone before I go nuts with the measuring.
Oh, and the measurement was done with the mic about a meter from the tweeters, with the speakers in their usual position on my desk.
Actually, if I look at the published frequency response plots of the microphone I measured them with, the high region from 6-15KHz is likely the microphone, not the speakers.
I'm toying with reducing the series resistor on the tweeter, to bring the level up a couple of dB to compensate. Maybe I should get a properly flat microphone before I go nuts with the measuring.
Oh, and the measurement was done with the mic about a meter from the tweeters, with the speakers in their usual position on my desk.
Suzy
Contour has done more work on these than I have (I tried the single cap and one of the series) and tried each crossover. He reported some info on the sound and FR etc.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1003832#post1003832
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1007064#post1007064
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1042144#post1042144
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1042677#post1042677
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1064997#post1064997
He got a dip with the tweeter with +ve polarity (I think I read it correctly) and it was the first alternative xo. Each of the later series crossovers has different polarity arrangements... 1 +ve, 1 -ve, AR -ve polarity. He did say the AR version has a great FR on and off axis but no reports on the FR for the standard series.
This speaker is a good learning tool to tweak etc as the costs are low and the drivers very good. That was one of the main aims of the thread originator.
Contour has done more work on these than I have (I tried the single cap and one of the series) and tried each crossover. He reported some info on the sound and FR etc.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1003832#post1003832
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1007064#post1007064
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1042144#post1042144
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1042677#post1042677
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1064997#post1064997
He got a dip with the tweeter with +ve polarity (I think I read it correctly) and it was the first alternative xo. Each of the later series crossovers has different polarity arrangements... 1 +ve, 1 -ve, AR -ve polarity. He did say the AR version has a great FR on and off axis but no reports on the FR for the standard series.
This speaker is a good learning tool to tweak etc as the costs are low and the drivers very good. That was one of the main aims of the thread originator.
Hello,
Recently I rebuild this 2-way design using real wood. I have to say the design looks now so much better then made of cheap MDF.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/503/pict0017yz4.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3301/pict0092ads1.jpg
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8022/filter1xd0.jpg
I used the Vifa P13WH and the Scan Speak 9900 Revelator tweeter. I really like this tweeter, it sounds very 'high-end' to my ears. I used the AR series crossover with the polarity of the tweeter reversed.
I added a schematic of the crossover I use, with an extra woofer added to make it three way (I have not added this woofer yet, its is an idea I am playing with).
Best regards,
Walt
Recently I rebuild this 2-way design using real wood. I have to say the design looks now so much better then made of cheap MDF.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/503/pict0017yz4.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3301/pict0092ads1.jpg
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8022/filter1xd0.jpg
I used the Vifa P13WH and the Scan Speak 9900 Revelator tweeter. I really like this tweeter, it sounds very 'high-end' to my ears. I used the AR series crossover with the polarity of the tweeter reversed.
I added a schematic of the crossover I use, with an extra woofer added to make it three way (I have not added this woofer yet, its is an idea I am playing with).
Best regards,
Walt
Nice work and how does it sound using timber instead of MDF or is it veneered MDF?
The AR site has a recommended implementation of it's crossover in a 3-way.
http://www.acoustic-reality.com/ser-imp-lin-3-way-xo.jpg
You can also consider a 2.5 way as I tried the speaker with a Peerless 850122 as a 0.5 woofer last week. Sounded quite sweet and blended well even with the different drivers and the P13 still in action at the bottom end.
The AR site has a recommended implementation of it's crossover in a 3-way.
http://www.acoustic-reality.com/ser-imp-lin-3-way-xo.jpg
You can also consider a 2.5 way as I tried the speaker with a Peerless 850122 as a 0.5 woofer last week. Sounded quite sweet and blended well even with the different drivers and the P13 still in action at the bottom end.
I am very interested in this project, and thought I would have a crack at it. As a beginner, I guess this would be a good test for the project and for me. There also seems to be quite a few Australians contributing, so I am hoping that this will help in part selection. I thought I could begin by working on a BOM. Note I haven't bought any drivers or crossover parts before, so what I have is from searching on the web. I am looking at Australian sites at the start to reduce shipping costs, but I am guessing that cross-over parts should be small and light enough to be bought from international suppliers. Anyway, based on this project, here is a start:
tweeterD27TG-45-06
tweeterD27TG-45-06
I am very interested in this project, and thought I would have a crack at it. As a beginner, I guess this would be a good test for the project and for me. There also seems to be quite a few Australians contributing, so I am hoping that this will help in part selection. I thought I could begin by working on a BOM. Note I haven't bought any drivers or crossover parts before, so what I have is from searching on the web. I am looking at Australian sites at the start to reduce shipping costs, but I am guessing that cross-over parts should be small and light enough to be bought from international suppliers. Anyway, based on this project, here is a start, looking at speakerbits website:
item price (AUD)
Drivers
D27TG-45-06 VF027C 50.78
P13WH-00-08 VF130D 81.85
Crossover (rabbitz alternative 1)
R1 5R7
L1 0.68mH Carlsson inductor (COILC00-68) 7.79
C1 3.3uF Solen fast capacitor (SOC003.3) 24.77
I'm guessing that L1 slightly under rabbitz value of 0.7 mH would be ok.
Total cost for a pair for the above is $330.38. With resistors, terminals, vent, lining, mdf, veneer and shipping, I think you would be lucky to get it under $400AUD. This is a tad more than I had planned to spend on a first project--I was thinking $200-300. Does all this seem right?
item price (AUD)
Drivers
D27TG-45-06 VF027C 50.78
P13WH-00-08 VF130D 81.85
Crossover (rabbitz alternative 1)
R1 5R7
L1 0.68mH Carlsson inductor (COILC00-68) 7.79
C1 3.3uF Solen fast capacitor (SOC003.3) 24.77
I'm guessing that L1 slightly under rabbitz value of 0.7 mH would be ok.
Total cost for a pair for the above is $330.38. With resistors, terminals, vent, lining, mdf, veneer and shipping, I think you would be lucky to get it under $400AUD. This is a tad more than I had planned to spend on a first project--I was thinking $200-300. Does all this seem right?
First, make sure this is the speaker that will suit your application as it's not big on low bass but great elsewhere. Fantastic in a small to medium room but a larger room needs bass assistance such as a sub or a larger 0.5 woofer.
I couldn't check the Speakerbits site as it's not working at the moment. I'd be surprised if you can get the D27TG-45-06 as the distributor hasn't had it for a while but the D27TG-35-06 drops straight in (same tweeter with a different face plate). The Solen cap price is way off... unless that's the inductor price. Just make sure their price includes GST as I think it might not.
The 0.68mH works fine as that's what's in mine.
Send me an email from this forum and I give you a price for those components which I will do at cost plus Paypal fees if applicable. I'd have to check availability at the distributor if you were interested.
I couldn't check the Speakerbits site as it's not working at the moment. I'd be surprised if you can get the D27TG-45-06 as the distributor hasn't had it for a while but the D27TG-35-06 drops straight in (same tweeter with a different face plate). The Solen cap price is way off... unless that's the inductor price. Just make sure their price includes GST as I think it might not.
The 0.68mH works fine as that's what's in mine.
Send me an email from this forum and I give you a price for those components which I will do at cost plus Paypal fees if applicable. I'd have to check availability at the distributor if you were interested.
Hi Rabbitz try a different address
http://www.speakerbits.com
It apparently changed last week sometime
Those do look like the current prices and we are a small market here so shipping costs ad markup is very high!!!
Regards Ted
http://www.speakerbits.com
It apparently changed last week sometime
Those do look like the current prices and we are a small market here so shipping costs ad markup is very high!!!
Regards Ted
rabbitz,
thanks for your reply. I would send an email but I am too new on this forum so I'm not allowed. I would be keen to see the prices, so maybe if you could email me to start that would be great.
I like the philosophy you had in mind with this--that as a first project it should sound good, and that a beginner would like to start with something that someone has already worked out a sensible design. Later projects could be designed differently.
Thank you for also pointing out the limitation of this speaker as well--it should be ok for my purposes in a mid-sized room, and I think that there would be an opportunity to add base with maybe a sub later if I wanted. I like the idea that there is some room for tweaking stuff like subs, crossover etc in this, should help me learn about it.
thanks for your reply. I would send an email but I am too new on this forum so I'm not allowed. I would be keen to see the prices, so maybe if you could email me to start that would be great.
I like the philosophy you had in mind with this--that as a first project it should sound good, and that a beginner would like to start with something that someone has already worked out a sensible design. Later projects could be designed differently.
Thank you for also pointing out the limitation of this speaker as well--it should be ok for my purposes in a mid-sized room, and I think that there would be an opportunity to add base with maybe a sub later if I wanted. I like the idea that there is some room for tweaking stuff like subs, crossover etc in this, should help me learn about it.
Hi Rabbitz, this is Moondog55's SWMBO 
Some info regarding GST . As long as the seller advises that prices do not include GST, you should expect that GST will be added to the invoice (when you purchase within Australia). GST legislation covers what information is to be written onto a tax invoice but not its format. When we advise clients how they charge GST (I work for ATO) the thing that we always stress is to ensure your customers are aware whether your prices are inclusive or exclusive of GST but the bottom line is, if someone is registered for GST they are legally liable for charging it.
Sellers that ship overseas may not need to charge GST to these overseas customers, so leaving this off their pricing imay be easier for them. If you want to check the GST registraton of an entity, you can use the ABN lookup function at abr.gov.au.
Generally, you should expect to always pay GST when dealing with a well-established business...small businesses with turnover less than 75k are not required to be registered.
If you ever have any question, make sure you ask the seller about it.
Hope this helps
Some info regarding GST . As long as the seller advises that prices do not include GST, you should expect that GST will be added to the invoice (when you purchase within Australia). GST legislation covers what information is to be written onto a tax invoice but not its format. When we advise clients how they charge GST (I work for ATO) the thing that we always stress is to ensure your customers are aware whether your prices are inclusive or exclusive of GST but the bottom line is, if someone is registered for GST they are legally liable for charging it.
Sellers that ship overseas may not need to charge GST to these overseas customers, so leaving this off their pricing imay be easier for them. If you want to check the GST registraton of an entity, you can use the ABN lookup function at abr.gov.au.
Generally, you should expect to always pay GST when dealing with a well-established business...small businesses with turnover less than 75k are not required to be registered.
If you ever have any question, make sure you ask the seller about it.
Hope this helps
Hi all,
Great forum you have here. I’m a hi fi newbie planning on building 2 way bookshelf speakers and the reference speakers described here look “do-able”.
I understand from earlier in the thread the vifa PL13 is discontinued. It’s still available in Aus available according to some websites. In the interests of science and learning about speaker design, I’d like to try and find a current replacement. Sticking with Tymphany (seem to be easy to get in Aus), options for 5” midbass listed on their site :
Vifa PL14WJ09-08
Peerless 832873
Peerless 830860
Peerless 831882
Vifa has 86 db sensitivity vs 88 for the Peerless. I’m looking at using a lower wattage amp, so go with the Peerless. The 831882 is $20+ more than the other two, so I’d prefer one of the other two. Musical taste is mainly guitar rock, some acoustic.
Has anyone used the 832873 or 830860, and which would be preferable for this application ? I’ve been playing around with them & PL13 in Win ISD, but I’d like some real world feedback. The manufacturers websites have hype on each driver, but don’t give guidance on what they’re best suited for ie
832873 HDS Nomex “Featuring "shorting rings" for low distortion and coils offering perfect linear compatibility with NOMEX cones, these audio transducers are characterized by their very open, very rich sound character”
830860 HDS PPB “Polypropylene Black (PPB) cone material used in the HDS PPB Series, creating a stiff but still dampened cone that remains stable even under the greatest sound pressures.”
Great forum you have here. I’m a hi fi newbie planning on building 2 way bookshelf speakers and the reference speakers described here look “do-able”.
I understand from earlier in the thread the vifa PL13 is discontinued. It’s still available in Aus available according to some websites. In the interests of science and learning about speaker design, I’d like to try and find a current replacement. Sticking with Tymphany (seem to be easy to get in Aus), options for 5” midbass listed on their site :
Vifa PL14WJ09-08
Peerless 832873
Peerless 830860
Peerless 831882
Vifa has 86 db sensitivity vs 88 for the Peerless. I’m looking at using a lower wattage amp, so go with the Peerless. The 831882 is $20+ more than the other two, so I’d prefer one of the other two. Musical taste is mainly guitar rock, some acoustic.
Has anyone used the 832873 or 830860, and which would be preferable for this application ? I’ve been playing around with them & PL13 in Win ISD, but I’d like some real world feedback. The manufacturers websites have hype on each driver, but don’t give guidance on what they’re best suited for ie
832873 HDS Nomex “Featuring "shorting rings" for low distortion and coils offering perfect linear compatibility with NOMEX cones, these audio transducers are characterized by their very open, very rich sound character”
830860 HDS PPB “Polypropylene Black (PPB) cone material used in the HDS PPB Series, creating a stiff but still dampened cone that remains stable even under the greatest sound pressures.”
You need the P13WH-00-08 not the PL. Here in the netherlands these drivers turn up second handed from time to time. So not very difficult to find a couple.
Recently I added 2x the Tangband W6-1108SA as subs to my 5 litre design with the Vifa P13WH.
It is amazing how low these 6" Tangband go. They also have very little distortion. In fact a couple of these sounds much better then the big 18" sub which can also be seen on the next picture:
http://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/download.php?id=8331
Best regards,
Walt
Recently I added 2x the Tangband W6-1108SA as subs to my 5 litre design with the Vifa P13WH.
It is amazing how low these 6" Tangband go. They also have very little distortion. In fact a couple of these sounds much better then the big 18" sub which can also be seen on the next picture:
http://www.zelfbouwaudio.nl/forum/download.php?id=8331
Best regards,
Walt
jamtin
Have a look at a list of drivers at Zaph's as will give you some ideas as well as his designs.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/
I'd go with the 832873 Nomex as there has been a lot of positive results from builders using various Nomex drivers in different sizes. I've had great results from the 6.5" 830875 from small standmounts to floor standers and it's a great driver for the money. I've used the previous 5.5" 850488 with great success so can't see a problem using the replacement drivers.
Another option is the 830875 in a small box and I've got one in a box Vb=12 litres. There's something about a 6.5" vs 5.5" in a small box as the sound is more dynamic and effortless.
Be aware that you can't transplant the crossovers for the D27/P13 project into something else. It will have to be designed from scratch.
A good tweeter match is the SEAS 27TDFC which is easy to work with, robust, reasonably priced and sounds good. There is little in the Tymphany range around the same dollars... maybe the DX25TG-05-04 but requires more work.
One other thing.... usually the WinISD optimum result that it comes up with is rarely the best one to use. It normally picks a result which is the flattest with the lowest F3 to suit. You normally have to play around to achieve a design goal.
Have fun in your project.
Have a look at a list of drivers at Zaph's as will give you some ideas as well as his designs.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/
I'd go with the 832873 Nomex as there has been a lot of positive results from builders using various Nomex drivers in different sizes. I've had great results from the 6.5" 830875 from small standmounts to floor standers and it's a great driver for the money. I've used the previous 5.5" 850488 with great success so can't see a problem using the replacement drivers.
Another option is the 830875 in a small box and I've got one in a box Vb=12 litres. There's something about a 6.5" vs 5.5" in a small box as the sound is more dynamic and effortless.
Be aware that you can't transplant the crossovers for the D27/P13 project into something else. It will have to be designed from scratch.
A good tweeter match is the SEAS 27TDFC which is easy to work with, robust, reasonably priced and sounds good. There is little in the Tymphany range around the same dollars... maybe the DX25TG-05-04 but requires more work.
One other thing.... usually the WinISD optimum result that it comes up with is rarely the best one to use. It normally picks a result which is the flattest with the lowest F3 to suit. You normally have to play around to achieve a design goal.
Have fun in your project.