Not necessarily, Rabbitz.
Like the original intent of this thread suggested, I was looking for a project a number of us could build, that could be used to compare to others...in it's price range or not.
The last few days, I've been waiting for more input from "the committee" (as well as suffering thru the flu and sorting out my Audax HT crossovers) but I think your suggestion of the P13/D27 is a good starting point.
Woofer: Vifa P13WH-00-08
Tweeter: Vifa D27TG-45-06
Crossover: 5uF capacitor on tweeter as suggested
L-Pad: required?????......... 2db variation
Vb=5.2 litres plus 0.3 litres for driver and port, internal volume 5.5 litres, Fb=73.7 Hz, F3=78.8 Hz
Box: 175mm wide x 280mm high x 187mm deep?????? (5.5 litres)
Port: 39mm dia x 96mm (easy to get PVC pipe)
Port at front so can be placed against a wall if desired
16mm MDF
Scott C. Blaier's Esquire is the same, right? I'll be using 3/4" MDF as it's what I have, what about the sloped baffle?
I've ordered drivers. Other than x-overs, do you want to make any changes to this plan? (I'll build Scott's x-over as well)
You'll have your Peerless speakers to do a comparative write-up.
Tktran, aggielaw and others seemed to agree, PHilgeman's idea of using the P14 or the MG14 got some support.....phs, and slackerbob- if you, or anyone wants to post a design, we could build a set and make a comparison. I like Variac's suggestion of using more exotic drivers, and I wouldn't be surprised if, with NoKnowledge's help we quickly see the next generation of our Ref. 2- Way.
Lusso5 suggested a two way with the on-sale-everywhere AP170Z0 and TM025F1. I thought at first, we shouldn't concern ourselves with them because of future availability, but those reading this now, might want to take advantage of this opportunity.
One thing I hate, when reading on someone's website about their speaker project, is the sometimes noted on the bottom: "The above drivers are no longer available, blah, blah, blah...." Why, when they add this , they don't put it at the top, is beyond me.
I have the Audax drivers on hand and could do something, but I'm more interested in the P13 TLb and the Fostex 167E as next projects.
Thanks for all your help. This thread is not dead yet.
Like the original intent of this thread suggested, I was looking for a project a number of us could build, that could be used to compare to others...in it's price range or not.
The last few days, I've been waiting for more input from "the committee" (as well as suffering thru the flu and sorting out my Audax HT crossovers) but I think your suggestion of the P13/D27 is a good starting point.
Woofer: Vifa P13WH-00-08
Tweeter: Vifa D27TG-45-06
Crossover: 5uF capacitor on tweeter as suggested
L-Pad: required?????......... 2db variation
Vb=5.2 litres plus 0.3 litres for driver and port, internal volume 5.5 litres, Fb=73.7 Hz, F3=78.8 Hz
Box: 175mm wide x 280mm high x 187mm deep?????? (5.5 litres)
Port: 39mm dia x 96mm (easy to get PVC pipe)
Port at front so can be placed against a wall if desired
16mm MDF
Scott C. Blaier's Esquire is the same, right? I'll be using 3/4" MDF as it's what I have, what about the sloped baffle?
I've ordered drivers. Other than x-overs, do you want to make any changes to this plan? (I'll build Scott's x-over as well)
You'll have your Peerless speakers to do a comparative write-up.
Tktran, aggielaw and others seemed to agree, PHilgeman's idea of using the P14 or the MG14 got some support.....phs, and slackerbob- if you, or anyone wants to post a design, we could build a set and make a comparison. I like Variac's suggestion of using more exotic drivers, and I wouldn't be surprised if, with NoKnowledge's help we quickly see the next generation of our Ref. 2- Way.
Lusso5 suggested a two way with the on-sale-everywhere AP170Z0 and TM025F1. I thought at first, we shouldn't concern ourselves with them because of future availability, but those reading this now, might want to take advantage of this opportunity.
One thing I hate, when reading on someone's website about their speaker project, is the sometimes noted on the bottom: "The above drivers are no longer available, blah, blah, blah...." Why, when they add this , they don't put it at the top, is beyond me.
I have the Audax drivers on hand and could do something, but I'm more interested in the P13 TLb and the Fostex 167E as next projects.
Thanks for all your help. This thread is not dead yet.
In my opinion that F3 is way to high. I wouldn't bother building it without building two subwoofers too. Half a year ago I built some small speakers (3.5L internal box volume (without drivers and port)) using a Peerless neodymium tweeter and a shielded Vifa TC 4½ inch midwoofer. They have an Fb at 69hz and F3 at approx. 70-71hz. And they DO require a subwoofer in order to get satisfactory response.
But I'm sure they'll be excellent computer speakers whenever I get around to adjusting the crossover. A reference project ment as a starting point for newbie should have a F3 at no higher than 50-55hz, which should be obtainable with decently priced drivers in a reasonably sized box.
But I'm sure they'll be excellent computer speakers whenever I get around to adjusting the crossover. A reference project ment as a starting point for newbie should have a F3 at no higher than 50-55hz, which should be obtainable with decently priced drivers in a reasonably sized box.
My own vote for "most bang for the buck" (which is what most newbies want) is probably something like this - which I'm getting ready to build:
Tower speakers (approximately 42" high x 12" deep x 7.5" front) which has 2 Dayton 5.25" mids and a Dayton silk dome tweeter in an MTM configuration - AND - a Dayton 12" DVC sub mounted on the side. The whole thing is driven by an active crossover which includes Linkwitz transform to extend the bass to the sub, and three/four channels of "gainclones" (using LM4780's). Should cost out at about $125 to $150 per speaker and allow something around 110dB or so in normal listening.
I figure that it should be reasonable for both music and HT applications and it's cheap!
As for the drivers - they seem to be a pretty good match with each other AND a good match with the "gainclones" in terms of power output and the requirements.
Any comments most welcome........ will keep the forum posted on the progress (or lack of)....
Tower speakers (approximately 42" high x 12" deep x 7.5" front) which has 2 Dayton 5.25" mids and a Dayton silk dome tweeter in an MTM configuration - AND - a Dayton 12" DVC sub mounted on the side. The whole thing is driven by an active crossover which includes Linkwitz transform to extend the bass to the sub, and three/four channels of "gainclones" (using LM4780's). Should cost out at about $125 to $150 per speaker and allow something around 110dB or so in normal listening.
I figure that it should be reasonable for both music and HT applications and it's cheap!
As for the drivers - they seem to be a pretty good match with each other AND a good match with the "gainclones" in terms of power output and the requirements.
Any comments most welcome........ will keep the forum posted on the progress (or lack of)....
The thread lives.
Since it's well documented, go with the Esquire design. For those that do not want a sloped baffle (and the extra work), the depth becomes 6.375" using 0.625" material.
The simple and cheaper alternative for the 4th order crossover would be the 5uF capacitor on the tweeter only. I can't see where he's put the port as he states it's to be used against the wall to reinforce the bass. None on the front, can't be on the back, so must be on the side. If it's to be placed out from the wall, then put the port in the back in line with the tweeter. Damping would be required on the back wall as a minimum.
This would be a good replacement speaker for those supplied with mini or midi systems, also would work well with a sub. Even would be good in a HT setup all round with a sub.....heaps of uses. Minimal bass, but great mids and highs.
x. onasis said:
Since it's well documented, go with the Esquire design. For those that do not want a sloped baffle (and the extra work), the depth becomes 6.375" using 0.625" material.
The simple and cheaper alternative for the 4th order crossover would be the 5uF capacitor on the tweeter only. I can't see where he's put the port as he states it's to be used against the wall to reinforce the bass. None on the front, can't be on the back, so must be on the side. If it's to be placed out from the wall, then put the port in the back in line with the tweeter. Damping would be required on the back wall as a minimum.
This would be a good replacement speaker for those supplied with mini or midi systems, also would work well with a sub. Even would be good in a HT setup all round with a sub.....heaps of uses. Minimal bass, but great mids and highs.
It was said early on that this would be a challenge simply because of the personal taste of individuals. I'm going to try and bring some of it together.
The intention of the project was to indentify a project for first time speaker builders. First time builders need something simple, cheap and probably with wide FR so they don't have to build a sub too. Simple rules out 3-way systems, horns, etc. Single driver might qualify except to get wide FR takes more money. MTMs have inherent problems that also take more time and money to correct. Therefore, I suggest the Pioneer B20/Piezo described by James Melhuish as an ideal starter project.
The intention of the project was to indentify a project for first time speaker builders. First time builders need something simple, cheap and probably with wide FR so they don't have to build a sub too. Simple rules out 3-way systems, horns, etc. Single driver might qualify except to get wide FR takes more money. MTMs have inherent problems that also take more time and money to correct. Therefore, I suggest the Pioneer B20/Piezo described by James Melhuish as an ideal starter project.
Hello Guys:
Be patient with those of us that do not respond immediately. I think there are two schools here those that want a cross over design and those that do not. For me the FE167e is great for a no cross over design. It is a proven driver and not real expensive. Others have completed the work needed to use it in various cabinet configurations. The DIYer need only go from the work of others to come up with a design.
I like the idea of a Newbie-read-me that contains a few well-documented projects. But mostly it should contain information and pit falls to watch out for. Some helpful hints on construction some watchful things in cross over design links to great web sites etc. I do not think there is a great first project that is going t fit all needs. As with my experience the essence of DIY is to modify an idea to suit your own needs. Make a few mistakes and figure out how to solve them learn and carry on.
Be patient with those of us that do not respond immediately. I think there are two schools here those that want a cross over design and those that do not. For me the FE167e is great for a no cross over design. It is a proven driver and not real expensive. Others have completed the work needed to use it in various cabinet configurations. The DIYer need only go from the work of others to come up with a design.
I like the idea of a Newbie-read-me that contains a few well-documented projects. But mostly it should contain information and pit falls to watch out for. Some helpful hints on construction some watchful things in cross over design links to great web sites etc. I do not think there is a great first project that is going t fit all needs. As with my experience the essence of DIY is to modify an idea to suit your own needs. Make a few mistakes and figure out how to solve them learn and carry on.
Here is a link to a 2-way speaker designed by John K. that I built (successfully) as a first time project. I've been very pleased with the sound. It is not a kit, but the drivers are easily obtained and the xo parts are all laid out for you. All you need to be able to do is woodwork and solder. On this site is the layout for the type of "newbie-guide" people seem to want. All of the categories are not filled out, but there are some reviews to get a newbie started.
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/sd_250.shtml
Concerning requests for having EVERYTHING laid out are a bit much. If you don't know how to read x0 schematics, there are books at the library that break it down to an elementary level. I've also found some of the most popular speaker-building books there as well, along with soldering fundamentals. A newbie should do as much as possible on their own to educate themselves. It is not that difficult.
Also, for the first project, most of the simpler, less expensive projects will provide a valuable experience and a very satisfactory sound. There is no great need to sweat over finding THE kit to build, as there is more than one very good option.
Enjoy the process.
tim schaefer
http://www.audiodiycentral.com/sd_250.shtml
Concerning requests for having EVERYTHING laid out are a bit much. If you don't know how to read x0 schematics, there are books at the library that break it down to an elementary level. I've also found some of the most popular speaker-building books there as well, along with soldering fundamentals. A newbie should do as much as possible on their own to educate themselves. It is not that difficult.
Also, for the first project, most of the simpler, less expensive projects will provide a valuable experience and a very satisfactory sound. There is no great need to sweat over finding THE kit to build, as there is more than one very good option.
Enjoy the process.
tim schaefer
Do I detect a little frustration? Maybe not, but I can relate to your statement. If someone has provided the enclosure volume/measurements, port size, XO type and values that should be enough information to complete the project, barring questions from unforseen circumstances. DIY is about trying a learning. Read a book. If you can't find the answers then ask the question. You get much better responses from those with experience. (I don't consider myself part of that group but sometimes I try to share).
no, not frustration, just speaking my mind. As it turns out, the website containing the link that I posted has all of the things that people are asking for on this thread: kits, reviews, tutorials, etc.. The only thing lacking is MORE of all of the above, but so it goes when there are so many websites and a lack of centralization. It is still a good site.
It'd be too much work to centralize everything and who would want to do all of that for no pay? It's just easier to make a LINKS section on an individual site. Newbies just have to realize the nebulous nature of the DIY community and be willing to put in the time to peruse a good number of sites. There are a few link lists that are a good starting point, such as Decibel Dungen, JPO speakerbuilding linklist, and the audionova - hifi diy audio links list (mind-numbing, but impressive list).
It'd be too much work to centralize everything and who would want to do all of that for no pay? It's just easier to make a LINKS section on an individual site. Newbies just have to realize the nebulous nature of the DIY community and be willing to put in the time to peruse a good number of sites. There are a few link lists that are a good starting point, such as Decibel Dungen, JPO speakerbuilding linklist, and the audionova - hifi diy audio links list (mind-numbing, but impressive list).
Hello Tims and Timn,
It might be possible there are others who have misinterpreted the point of this thread, so let me address these quotes:
It was not my intention to either identify a "great first project" or "one that would fit all needs."
Rather, I wanted to pick a simple project that _might_ be a good first time speaker project, but more.......
It might be possible there are others who have misinterpreted the point of this thread, so let me address these quotes:
It was not my intention to either identify a "great first project" or "one that would fit all needs."
Rather, I wanted to pick a simple project that _might_ be a good first time speaker project, but more.......
- A two-way project that many of us would build, to act as an objective comparative reference to other (perhaps similar) speakers we have, or will build.
- A speaker using drivers that might be changed by playing with enclosure design or swapped with others for an upgrade.
- A design that might enjoy growing. By way of additional drivers, different configurations, and crossover tweaks.
[/list=1]
This is why relatively inexpensive, but readily available drivers are being considered. The idea of two or even more speakers being built as prototypes, with varying x-overs could add up quickly.
I think sobaz, and especially netgeek have made very good suggestions regarding choices for directions for whole systems, and I had hoped that a driver as well regarded, and easy to work with as the P13, but with a lower F3, had been suggested (and rallied around,) but this hasn't happen....yet.
As an offshoot, a collection of links, or kits with documentation in the links section, or growth and development of the Wiki would be a good thing too. But I hope this clarification brings you and others back with more input and energy.
BTW Timn, after looking over the graphs at James Melhuish's Pioneer B20/Piezo project, I wonder how they compare to your TB projects?
x.onassis:
Vb=5.2 litres plus 0.3 litres for driver and port, internal volume 5.5 litres, Fb=73.7 Hz, F3=78.8 Hz
sobazz:
Just did some modeling. Not with the 13cm Vifa PL driver but a 11cm. With a box volume of 7L,
an Fb of 59hz and 17.7cm long 4.7cm^2 port you will get an F3 at around 53hz.
I believe the 2.5L more is worth a lot.
Esquire: Volume: 5.3 liters, Vent: 1.25 inch diameter 1.625 inches long (75 Hz), F3: 75 Hz,
Alignment: SC4 (better transient stability than QB3).
rabbitz:
Sure it's bass shy, so is the B&WDM303 which was the EISA speaker of the year
(couple of years back). This speaker is about detail and imaging.
/quotes
there has been a niggling thought at the back of my mind for a few days now... enclosure size.
fs of the P17 is 37Hz, included with the data sheet are some enclosure sizes / roll off graphs ranging from 10lt, 15lt, 22lt and 30lt.
are we shortchanging ourlseves by placing this driver in a 5lt enclosure?
sobazz has mentioned this point with a 7lt volume, still quite far off the 10 - 30lt.
surely we can squeeze a little bit more out of the driver? perhaps
i am missing something here; why the small volume?
transients? optimally flat response?
*early awaits thoughts*
i clearly remember a friends floorstanding P17/D25 setup with a bottom rear port, no internal divisions. i forgot to ask him about the size, but it was definately large. 5.6uf cap only, sounded amazing.
Vb=5.2 litres plus 0.3 litres for driver and port, internal volume 5.5 litres, Fb=73.7 Hz, F3=78.8 Hz
sobazz:
Just did some modeling. Not with the 13cm Vifa PL driver but a 11cm. With a box volume of 7L,
an Fb of 59hz and 17.7cm long 4.7cm^2 port you will get an F3 at around 53hz.
I believe the 2.5L more is worth a lot.
Esquire: Volume: 5.3 liters, Vent: 1.25 inch diameter 1.625 inches long (75 Hz), F3: 75 Hz,
Alignment: SC4 (better transient stability than QB3).
rabbitz:
Sure it's bass shy, so is the B&WDM303 which was the EISA speaker of the year
(couple of years back). This speaker is about detail and imaging.
/quotes
there has been a niggling thought at the back of my mind for a few days now... enclosure size.
fs of the P17 is 37Hz, included with the data sheet are some enclosure sizes / roll off graphs ranging from 10lt, 15lt, 22lt and 30lt.
are we shortchanging ourlseves by placing this driver in a 5lt enclosure?
sobazz has mentioned this point with a 7lt volume, still quite far off the 10 - 30lt.
surely we can squeeze a little bit more out of the driver? perhaps
i am missing something here; why the small volume?
transients? optimally flat response?
*early awaits thoughts*
i clearly remember a friends floorstanding P17/D25 setup with a bottom rear port, no internal divisions. i forgot to ask him about the size, but it was definately large. 5.6uf cap only, sounded amazing.
x. onasis said:
When these threads get a little long, I tend to get lost and lose sight of the original point. I was addressing comments that had come up somewhere during the thread. I should be more focused.
Concerning whether the P17 was put in an undersized box at 5L I cannot directly comment on since it is a ported design and I put my P17WJ-00-08 in a sealed box. I can say this, however. The recommended volume (sealed) for my speaker was around 10L and after testing the driver parameters, I opted for a 16L box, which would give me the option of a lower Qtc. Since I had not built a speaker before and did not know whether I'd like a Qtc > or < say 0.9, the larger box gave me the option to experiment with volume. You can always fill up a box that is too large. I know that you stuff a small box to increase the apparent volume, but this can only go so far. Anyway, I was amazed at how much of a difference was made with different amounts/types of stuffing. On this note, I recommend to the newbie to built an oversized box.
tim s