Hi everyone,
A few years ago (with a little bit of help from this forum!) I built my first amplifier, a small chipamp (using the TPA1517). I've enjoyed listening to that amp since then, using a pair of small, no-name bookshelf style speakers that I bought at Goodwill for $10. Recently I got the itch to do some more DIY audio (I don't really have any substantial complaints about my old gear, just like to mess with things and am sure there's room for improvement). I spent a lot of time investigating options for a bigger and better chipamp. However, after a lot of reading on the forums I decided that maybe I should actually investigate upgrading my speakers first, as these are probably the weakest link right now.
The big obstacle to DIY is that I've moved to New Zealand. Forum members who don't live in Oceania can simulate the experience quite effectively as follows: imagine that 80-90% of your favourite good quality, easy to find and reasonably priced hobby supplies are no longer available in your country. Now imagine that the 10%-20% that are left cost 2x to 3x what you are used to. This is basically the situation in places like NZ and my native Australia. It's not impossible to DIY speakers here, but it would be a significant investment (especially as I'd need to buy woodworking tools, too). I'm not averse to making such an investment in principle, but not until I'm sure it's worth it. I don't think I've ever listened to anything this forum would consider a really good speaker, and it's possible I'll find out I either don't have the hearing or the discerning listening skills to really find it worthwhile (I'm certainly not a super-demanding audiophile). I also don't want to sink in a lot of money at this stage because I'll probably be moving again in 3 years or so as I follow job opportunities around the world, and moving speaker enclosures overseas doesn't sound like fun, so I'd only have to sell whatever I made before too long.
One idea I had for maybe getting started on the road toward decent speakers is using existing speakers as a starting point. A lot of the thrift stores here seem to have quite a lot of speakers (some of them seemingly quite old, with nice wooden enclosures - I saw some "His Master's Voice" ones the other day!) at very cheap prices ($10-$20 a pair). The impression I've gotten from this forum is that most consumer speakers are pretty terrible (which is why, combined with high prices, I haven't even really considered just buying new ones). I was wondering whether it was worth maybe keeping an eye out for some that are better than average and then putting in the time and effort to make them into the best they can be? I'm thinking of things like:
Is this kind of approach worth considering, or am I just going to waste my time and money "polishing turds", as they say? Maybe the things that make consumer speakers sub-par are not things that can be easily fixed (e.g. just plain bad drivers).
If people think the refurb/upgrade approach is likely to pay dividends, I'd appreciate pointers on what to look for when choosing speakers as starting points. It's usually very hard to know what one is buying with thrift store speakers, so I need rules of thumb based on external appearance. Is older likely to work better than newer? Is bigger likely to work better than smaller? Are there any common brands who made especially decent or especially dreadful speakers? At $10-$20 a pair, I can afford to roll the dice a few times on finding decent starting speakers, but if I can stack the odds in my favour, that'd be great.
A few years ago (with a little bit of help from this forum!) I built my first amplifier, a small chipamp (using the TPA1517). I've enjoyed listening to that amp since then, using a pair of small, no-name bookshelf style speakers that I bought at Goodwill for $10. Recently I got the itch to do some more DIY audio (I don't really have any substantial complaints about my old gear, just like to mess with things and am sure there's room for improvement). I spent a lot of time investigating options for a bigger and better chipamp. However, after a lot of reading on the forums I decided that maybe I should actually investigate upgrading my speakers first, as these are probably the weakest link right now.
The big obstacle to DIY is that I've moved to New Zealand. Forum members who don't live in Oceania can simulate the experience quite effectively as follows: imagine that 80-90% of your favourite good quality, easy to find and reasonably priced hobby supplies are no longer available in your country. Now imagine that the 10%-20% that are left cost 2x to 3x what you are used to. This is basically the situation in places like NZ and my native Australia. It's not impossible to DIY speakers here, but it would be a significant investment (especially as I'd need to buy woodworking tools, too). I'm not averse to making such an investment in principle, but not until I'm sure it's worth it. I don't think I've ever listened to anything this forum would consider a really good speaker, and it's possible I'll find out I either don't have the hearing or the discerning listening skills to really find it worthwhile (I'm certainly not a super-demanding audiophile). I also don't want to sink in a lot of money at this stage because I'll probably be moving again in 3 years or so as I follow job opportunities around the world, and moving speaker enclosures overseas doesn't sound like fun, so I'd only have to sell whatever I made before too long.
One idea I had for maybe getting started on the road toward decent speakers is using existing speakers as a starting point. A lot of the thrift stores here seem to have quite a lot of speakers (some of them seemingly quite old, with nice wooden enclosures - I saw some "His Master's Voice" ones the other day!) at very cheap prices ($10-$20 a pair). The impression I've gotten from this forum is that most consumer speakers are pretty terrible (which is why, combined with high prices, I haven't even really considered just buying new ones). I was wondering whether it was worth maybe keeping an eye out for some that are better than average and then putting in the time and effort to make them into the best they can be? I'm thinking of things like:
- Replacing old capacitors in passive crossovers.
- Changing crossover-points if the factory defaults are sub-optimal.
- Adding extra bracing to the inside of the enclosures.
- Making ports larger if they need to be (I figure this is easier than making them smaller...)
- Sealing the enclosure joins with silicon.
- Lining the inside of the enclosure with something.
- Stuffing the enclosure with foam or polyfill.
- Making feet or a stand for the existing enclosure.
Is this kind of approach worth considering, or am I just going to waste my time and money "polishing turds", as they say? Maybe the things that make consumer speakers sub-par are not things that can be easily fixed (e.g. just plain bad drivers).
If people think the refurb/upgrade approach is likely to pay dividends, I'd appreciate pointers on what to look for when choosing speakers as starting points. It's usually very hard to know what one is buying with thrift store speakers, so I need rules of thumb based on external appearance. Is older likely to work better than newer? Is bigger likely to work better than smaller? Are there any common brands who made especially decent or especially dreadful speakers? At $10-$20 a pair, I can afford to roll the dice a few times on finding decent starting speakers, but if I can stack the odds in my favour, that'd be great.
Put in the mix the choice of the LS and the crossover design, the choice of materials and forms and you're done !
Put in the mix the choice of the LS and the crossover design, the choice of materials and forms and you're done !
You'll have to forgive my noobishness with speaker-related terminology (this is my first time outside of the electronics-oriented forums!), but by LS do you just mean loudspeaker, as in the drivers? I figured that replacing drivers is probably not much of an option for me, because I assume it would be difficult to find new ones which fit exactly in the holes already cut, plus if I stuck to affordable drivers I'm not sure I'd be able to find much better than what was already in there.
If the point you were trying to make is that my list of options seemed to cover so much of building a speaker from scratch that I may as well just do that (apologies if I've totally misread you on that), my reasoning was that everything I listed did not involve either buying drivers or building a whole enclosure from scratch, and I figured that avoiding these things would eliminate the majority of the expense (maybe not the effort) in starting from scratch.
Yes, you got it! As " everything sounds", I find myself concerning about a single bit, or screw
It might be viewed as a total design stage. Indeed, that's how it works, from caption to sound trasduction ( via LS's ! ).
And I understand the frustation of being at the very borders of the market.
I often recycle things that I found around in these years.
It took me more than 20 € -and that's a lot- to get two new foam rings for a pair of woofers that I found in the garbage- Now they're functioning !
In the meantime I can reuse old and broken speaker cones to make big waveguides and experiment with lower crossover points.
Or reuse that ugly paper cone tweeter together with a fresh modern mid-woofer and get explendid sound !
So get your hands on whatever and start makin' somethin'
It might be viewed as a total design stage. Indeed, that's how it works, from caption to sound trasduction ( via LS's ! ).
And I understand the frustation of being at the very borders of the market.
I often recycle things that I found around in these years.
It took me more than 20 € -and that's a lot- to get two new foam rings for a pair of woofers that I found in the garbage- Now they're functioning !
In the meantime I can reuse old and broken speaker cones to make big waveguides and experiment with lower crossover points.
Or reuse that ugly paper cone tweeter together with a fresh modern mid-woofer and get explendid sound !
So get your hands on whatever
and start makin' somethin'
go for a speaker with a good pedigree-
check the speaker suspension surrounds, rubber is ok but foam will probably be rotted.
A good indicator of quality will be the complication of the crossover -just a single cap is bad!!
size of the speaker magnet and build of the frame as well as cone material all matter.
I usually start by looking at the back, the speaker wire connections will give a good indicator of the rest of the speaker, then I check the crossover & speaker.
Basically you can't make honey out of dogdooo!!!
check the speaker suspension surrounds, rubber is ok but foam will probably be rotted.
A good indicator of quality will be the complication of the crossover -just a single cap is bad!!
size of the speaker magnet and build of the frame as well as cone material all matter.
I usually start by looking at the back, the speaker wire connections will give a good indicator of the rest of the speaker, then I check the crossover & speaker.
Basically you can't make honey out of dogdooo!!!
Thanks for the hints! With regard to pedigree, are there any particular manufacturers to look for or avoid? I'm assuming I'm not likely to stumble across anything really high end. Probably mostly standard household brands, Sony, etc.
I'm really keen to hear more about the speaker wire connections giving a good indicator of quality, as I can always see those (other things might not be so easy, I figure stores will not be too happy if I start tearing the enclosures open!). What are good/bad signs here? From memory, most of what I've looked at so far just has integrated cables coming out of the enclosure rather than a place to attach your own cables. I assume that's indicative of the lower end of the quality spectrum...
Used is usually the best place to start if you're looking to get the best value for your money.
If there is a lively used market (Kijiji is big where I live, Craigslist in other places), then if you're patient you can often find good bargains that way. If people have them down there then yard or garage sales are often a good place to find decent used gear.
As mentioned, have a look at the speaker surrounds on older speakers. People will often sell speakers when the surrounds start to break down, so if you're willing to try replacing them yourself (which can be a satisfying DIY project in itself) you can often find some very nice speakers at affordable prices.
A single capacitor is not always a sign of a poor speaker design. Older models like EPI 100 used a single capacitor, and they have always been regarded as good quality speakers.
For older, vintage speakers there are always a few standard brands to keep an eye out for, but I suspect the likely candidates in your part of the world would be vintage British and Japanese (or even Korean made) speakers. Some British brands to look for would be Tannoy, Celestion, KEF, Rogers, Spendor, Wharfedale, B&W (Bowers and Wilkins), and Quad. If you can luck into a pair of vintage speakers by any of these brands, you are likely off to a good start.
For vintage Asian speakers keep any eye out for older Yamaha, Onkyo, Diatone, Sony, Kenwood, Sansui, Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Technics, Realistic (Optimus), and Coral. There was a lot of audio gear made specifically for the Japanese market that is not widely available in the Western markets, so you might get lucky and find some old Sony speakers that might actually be very good.
If there is a lively used market (Kijiji is big where I live, Craigslist in other places), then if you're patient you can often find good bargains that way. If people have them down there then yard or garage sales are often a good place to find decent used gear.
As mentioned, have a look at the speaker surrounds on older speakers. People will often sell speakers when the surrounds start to break down, so if you're willing to try replacing them yourself (which can be a satisfying DIY project in itself) you can often find some very nice speakers at affordable prices.
A single capacitor is not always a sign of a poor speaker design. Older models like EPI 100 used a single capacitor, and they have always been regarded as good quality speakers.
For older, vintage speakers there are always a few standard brands to keep an eye out for, but I suspect the likely candidates in your part of the world would be vintage British and Japanese (or even Korean made) speakers. Some British brands to look for would be Tannoy, Celestion, KEF, Rogers, Spendor, Wharfedale, B&W (Bowers and Wilkins), and Quad. If you can luck into a pair of vintage speakers by any of these brands, you are likely off to a good start.
For vintage Asian speakers keep any eye out for older Yamaha, Onkyo, Diatone, Sony, Kenwood, Sansui, Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Technics, Realistic (Optimus), and Coral. There was a lot of audio gear made specifically for the Japanese market that is not widely available in the Western markets, so you might get lucky and find some old Sony speakers that might actually be very good.
Replacing old surrounds is definitely something I'd be willing to try. I'm not afraid of investing some DIY effort or learning in this undertaking at all (I'm actually hoping I'll learn a lot from it), just hoping to avoid the costliest parts to begin with.
Thanks very much for the list of brand names, that's a big help. I'll write them all down and keep an eye out at the op shops. There are garage sales here, too, so if I stumble past any of those I'll have a look as well. The nearest equivalent to Craigslist is something called TradeMe. There are a lot more high-end speakers on there than I expected, but certainly no bargains so far.
With the "single capacitor = bad" rule of thumb (which obviously has exceptions), should this be interpreted as evidence of likely unfixable shortcomings in general (e.g. crappy drivers) or could one see it as a good fixer-upper opportunity, where a better designed cross-over could yield good results?
Thanks very much for the list of brand names, that's a big help. I'll write them all down and keep an eye out at the op shops. There are garage sales here, too, so if I stumble past any of those I'll have a look as well. The nearest equivalent to Craigslist is something called TradeMe. There are a lot more high-end speakers on there than I expected, but certainly no bargains so far.
With the "single capacitor = bad" rule of thumb (which obviously has exceptions), should this be interpreted as evidence of likely unfixable shortcomings in general (e.g. crappy drivers) or could one see it as a good fixer-upper opportunity, where a better designed cross-over could yield good results?
I'm afraid that someone who's actually competent in crossover design will have to answer this one.
Fair enough! I expect the answer is probably no - it seems odd that a manufacturer would pay for decent drivers and then skimp on a few passive components, but then again sometimes the economics of these things are counter-intuitive.
You occasionally spot a second hand speaker that really appeals for some DIY. This one has gone really well, replacing the single 2.2uF capacitor:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/245917-diy-kef-celestion-6.html#post3868470
Here's early experiments with cone tweeters and good crossovers:
Decent cabinet and nice drivers, and you'll have hours of fun. I generally find smallest possible bass coil, shallow slopes and a high impedance at the top makes for a good sound. 8" bass is the easiest one. If you could find a simple 8" two way with a cone tweeter or a nice mylar one, like those simple looking big Pioneer and Sony speakers, you can do a lot.
I'd add a comment about adding bracing. Don't do it! You can spoil the balance of a cabinet by overdoing it. I'm all for repairing old glue joints, but adding material can push resonances higher and more audible. With a chipboard cabinet, you might strengthen it in a few places, but use chipboard, not heavy old solid battens. Damping never goes far wrong, and is not permanent anyway, so you can experiment. A bit of fluff behind the woofer is always good. A bit of rubbery stuff stuck to the sides with aerosol carpet adhesive is always good too.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/245917-diy-kef-celestion-6.html#post3868470
Here's early experiments with cone tweeters and good crossovers:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Decent cabinet and nice drivers, and you'll have hours of fun. I generally find smallest possible bass coil, shallow slopes and a high impedance at the top makes for a good sound. 8" bass is the easiest one. If you could find a simple 8" two way with a cone tweeter or a nice mylar one, like those simple looking big Pioneer and Sony speakers, you can do a lot.
I'd add a comment about adding bracing. Don't do it! You can spoil the balance of a cabinet by overdoing it. I'm all for repairing old glue joints, but adding material can push resonances higher and more audible. With a chipboard cabinet, you might strengthen it in a few places, but use chipboard, not heavy old solid battens. Damping never goes far wrong, and is not permanent anyway, so you can experiment. A bit of fluff behind the woofer is always good. A bit of rubbery stuff stuck to the sides with aerosol carpet adhesive is always good too.
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Craigslist, Kijiji and other second hand audio markets are ok, but if you are listing there, you probably know what you have and want something for it.
Second hand stores, estate sales and garage/yard sales have provided me with many speaker goodies over the years for a fraction of the resale value. You have to be patient as some places want big bucks, but others have good deals staring you in the face.
Other's posting here have it right. You can tell a lot by starting with a few basic check list items, some of which have been mentioned. These are things to look for even before you pull out your screw driver and begin to explore:
Cabinet mass and material thickness. If it's heavy, there is probably a reason.
Finish material. Is it real wood or veneer and not vinyl? There's probably a reason.
Speaker terminals. If they look fancy and quality, there's probably a reason.
Pull the grilles, have a look at the drivers. What do you see? Is it professional looking or something from a white van?
There are so many tell tale items that can give you a real bargain even if you can't see a label.
OTOH, you can pull off some cheap grills, have a look at the drivers and overall, get a not so good feeling and wind up passing on a set of Dynaco A25's or Large Advents so it helps to have a little background or a friend to go looking with.
Second hand stores, estate sales and garage/yard sales have provided me with many speaker goodies over the years for a fraction of the resale value. You have to be patient as some places want big bucks, but others have good deals staring you in the face.
Other's posting here have it right. You can tell a lot by starting with a few basic check list items, some of which have been mentioned. These are things to look for even before you pull out your screw driver and begin to explore:
Cabinet mass and material thickness. If it's heavy, there is probably a reason.
Finish material. Is it real wood or veneer and not vinyl? There's probably a reason.
Speaker terminals. If they look fancy and quality, there's probably a reason.
Pull the grilles, have a look at the drivers. What do you see? Is it professional looking or something from a white van?
There are so many tell tale items that can give you a real bargain even if you can't see a label.
OTOH, you can pull off some cheap grills, have a look at the drivers and overall, get a not so good feeling and wind up passing on a set of Dynaco A25's or Large Advents so it helps to have a little background or a friend to go looking with.
Thanks, everyone! I'm starting to feel like there's some hope for this idea, and I have a much better idea now of what to keep an eye out for. Now I guess it's just a matter of being patient and seeing what turns up. If I find anything that looks decent I'll pick it up and report back for ideas on any repairs or upgrades that may help.
Some great advice for you here so far,
You should be able to find some great speakers somewhere cheap, and I like many others I would do some diy mods on them.
The size of speakers will matter, if you like bass then bigger cabinets may usually be better. I'd always get used speakers with good quality drivers then you may improve cabinets and x-overs later to suit you. For woofers try look at the edge of frame where its usually screwed, if its good strong metal it would be a bonus. Always check for damage like gently pushing the woofer cone inwards slightly, if theres any scraping noises then stay away. Also good rubber surround on the woofer cone is possibly a good indication of a good driver, check for damage here too.
You should be able to find some great speakers somewhere cheap, and I like many others I would do some diy mods on them.
The size of speakers will matter, if you like bass then bigger cabinets may usually be better. I'd always get used speakers with good quality drivers then you may improve cabinets and x-overs later to suit you. For woofers try look at the edge of frame where its usually screwed, if its good strong metal it would be a bonus. Always check for damage like gently pushing the woofer cone inwards slightly, if theres any scraping noises then stay away. Also good rubber surround on the woofer cone is possibly a good indication of a good driver, check for damage here too.
Hi,
Thrift stores are great if you have a good eye, especially older
speakers, and I'm well old enough to be able to spot the good
value gems from the dross, but no you can't tart up dross.
Sadly I can't post my relatively encyclopedic knowledge
of older speakers and drivers, but can tell a little story :
Several years ago :
A fellow band member had speakers I kept telling him
were awful, he wouldn't have it, until I pulled off the
grilles to reveal 3 naff drivers, and the "alloy" parts
of the drivers were just plastic mouldings of the grille,
he was gutted, he really fell for the packaging artifice,
but agreed I might have point, see what you can do.
Shortly after I found some old Dynatrons in a thrift
shop, grilles off, 8" Peerless bassmid, and the now
much sort after 2" Peerless paper tweeter, £20.
Bought them, checked them out, nothing wrong
with them, so nothing to fix. I might of added
extra stuffing if it was needed, I cannot recall,
but TBH I don't think I needed to.
He ruefully admitted they utterly slaughtered the speakers
he had before and that for £20 a great pair of speakers.
Last heard them doing a sterling job at a party.
rgds, sreten.
Thrift stores are great if you have a good eye, especially older
speakers, and I'm well old enough to be able to spot the good
value gems from the dross, but no you can't tart up dross.
Sadly I can't post my relatively encyclopedic knowledge
of older speakers and drivers, but can tell a little story :
Several years ago :
A fellow band member had speakers I kept telling him
were awful, he wouldn't have it, until I pulled off the
grilles to reveal 3 naff drivers, and the "alloy" parts
of the drivers were just plastic mouldings of the grille,
he was gutted, he really fell for the packaging artifice,
but agreed I might have point, see what you can do.
Shortly after I found some old Dynatrons in a thrift
shop, grilles off, 8" Peerless bassmid, and the now
much sort after 2" Peerless paper tweeter, £20.
Bought them, checked them out, nothing wrong
with them, so nothing to fix. I might of added
extra stuffing if it was needed, I cannot recall,
but TBH I don't think I needed to.
He ruefully admitted they utterly slaughtered the speakers
he had before and that for £20 a great pair of speakers.
Last heard them doing a sterling job at a party.
rgds, sreten.
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You're going to be putting a lot of effort into a second-hand speaker if you are an enthusiast, so you want a nice looking BIG box IMO.
I could do something with these two cheapies:
60W 8in Shielded Bass Mid Range Speaker | Maplin
HT-22/8
Or these two goodies:
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
H1283-06 22TAF/G
Use a measuring tape to estimate how easy an upgrade is. It's mostly the crossover and the panel damping that can be improved.
I could do something with these two cheapies:
60W 8in Shielded Bass Mid Range Speaker | Maplin
HT-22/8
Or these two goodies:
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
H1283-06 22TAF/G
Use a measuring tape to estimate how easy an upgrade is. It's mostly the crossover and the panel damping that can be improved.
Hi Steve I'd be very interested in your thoughts if you built a solid birch ply cabinet the exact same size or slightly larger internal volume with internal braces for a pair of your loudspeaker drivers, same holes for drivers and port, same baffle size and material thickness or thicker especially for your baffle, then flare cab edges and woofer hole. I know you like bass (assuming because you like of 8" woofers) I think you would love the difference. You could bitumen the internal walls too if you made cabs slightly lager again. Could always put the drivers back if you don't like.
Hi,
Your not too far wrong, crappy drivers in poorly sized boxes are
simply not worth any effort at all and you don't wan't to go there.
Cost effectiveness and analysis is your problem, you can't
polish a turd so the saying goes, and that applies with
a vengeance regarding cheap used loudspeakers.
Spotting the gems if you can is a lot simpler.
rgds, sreten.
There was no way of "fixing" the speakers in post #15.
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