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Old 19th April 2014, 10:15 PM   #11
kouiky is offline kouiky  United States
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Originally Posted by jReave View Post
For some objective tests

link
Zaph's tests are hardly objective, in part because his testing method is flawed. His tests are not anechoic, and he's had a number of issues with the measurement hardware and space. These have influences on the results, as can be seen in many of his tests. A test is only objective if it follows scientific methods of controlled data collection, and that isn't something we see here. As for Troels Gravesen, he is also biased because he has a vested interest in SEAS and several brands. He owns the brands he uses. He had the wool over many people's eyes for years, but we are wiser now. His measurements are also flawed. Buying speaker drivers based on a couple oversimplified measurements taken in a livingroom or basement is the completely wrong way to compare performance attributes, because the results are only applicable in that room and spot, and cannot be referenced against or repeated by others.

The original poster of this discussion has one real choice for finding his answer- he has to buy and try different drivers, and compare then in his own design. No amount of " this driver trumps this other brand because GuruX said so on his blog" will give the OP what he really needs. Each driver will sound vastly different with a wide range of factors, not limited to different loadings, with different crossovers, and in different rooms. What driver sounds real to one person, sounds like a speaker to someone else. Johnny's warm speaker is Jack's muddy box.

Last edited by kouiky; 19th April 2014 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 20th April 2014, 12:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kouiky View Post
Zaph's tests are hardly objective, in part because his testing method is flawed. His tests are not anechoic, and he's had a number of issues with the measurement hardware and space. These have influences on the results, as can be seen in many of his tests. A test is only objective if it follows scientific methods of controlled data collection, and that isn't something we see here.
. You do not need an anechoic chamber to make reliable, accurate and meaningful measurements. All one has to do is properly gate those measurements to ensure that any room reflections are removed from the equation. Sure, this limits low frequency resolution, but that's absolutely fine in a world where the lower end of almost all drivers you will ever use, are operating purely within their pistonic range. Frequency response wise all the interesting stuff happens at roughly 300Hz and up, which one can easily measure to in the home environment. Everything below that, from a raw driver point of view, can be gained by either taking NF measurements, or simulation with accurate T/S parameters.

Zaph has gone to great lengths to ensure that his testing is carried out with the same conditions for each and every driver that he measures. Or if the conditions are different, or if a room artefact is present, he states what these are.

I would be interested though in hearing what you think the flaws are with his measurements because to me it sounds like your wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water. Even if his measurements aren't 100% perfect, (then again whose are?) there is still a heck of a lot right with them that makes them extremely useful to the average DIYer.
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Old 20th April 2014, 01:05 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by kouiky View Post
As for Troels Gravesen, he is also biased because he has a vested interest in SEAS and several brands. He owns the brands he uses. He had the wool over many people's eyes for years, but we are wiser now.
I don't think it's hard to figure out that he has something to gain if you shop at Jantzen Audio since he has a link to them on every design page. Still he uses a lot of drivers that Jantzen doesn't carry and he praises many of them. He also can still offer valuable advise as to which Seas drivers appeal to him and work well in his designs. Even though he apparently has some sort of ties with Jantzen, he still gives away the crossover design on nearly all of his builds so that you are free to shop anywhere you like... What more could you ask of him?

I would think he has a vested interest in making designs that people will enjoy. Perhaps more importantly, he surely seems to enjoy his own designs, so you know he is putting his years of practice and experience into them.

He has probably the largest selection of comprehensive designs for DIYers out there. I have no problem with him making a few dollars in the process if I wind up with a good design.
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Old 20th April 2014, 02:39 AM   #14
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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I had similar problems with kouiky's post #11.. or at least the first paragraph - a fair bit of it is at best misleading (..and at worst out-right wrong ..kouiky: it's time to look up the common meaning of objective vs. subjective).



On the other hand, I do agree with the sentiment on of his second/last paragraph of post #11.

It really depends on the design and implementation of the loudspeaker.



The original poster hasn't provided enough detail on intended use and design restrictions to provide a well-informed response.

I think the best advice I could give based on the info. provided is that (..IF having suitable amplification):

-use what you've got (Dayton paper driver and silk dome), but add to it in a meaningful way. More specifically: use a well-chosen midrange to complement the two drivers you already have (..in a box/baffle design that will work). This could be either a 2.5 or full 3-way design, and it should be a less expensive result (assuming a "passive" crossover) if done correctly.

IF that's to difficult, then look to a proven design that's available.
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Last edited by ScottG; 20th April 2014 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 20th April 2014, 01:29 PM   #15
Baldin is offline Baldin  Denmark
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Maybe off topic ... sorry ... but I would really consider SB Acoustics. As far as I know the guys have been working for SS before starting SB. Might not be as good as SS, but I think very close. Have seen a number of measurements in German speaker magazines, and they meassure really well. The new Satori (or an OEM version) is used in the new Wilson models, as far as I know ....
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Old 20th April 2014, 01:45 PM   #16
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by kouiky View Post
Zaph's tests are hardly objective, in part because his testing method is flawed.
Hi,

Your talking nonsense. They are objective as opposed to subjective.
Your musings as to the alleged methods flaws is subjective nonsense.
If you can't see the objective data in his tests, your willfully being blind.

rgds, sreten.


Zaphs opinion of each driver is of course a little subjective, but
not much, compared to those who's opinions are only subjective.
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Last edited by sreten; 20th April 2014 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 20th April 2014, 03:36 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Baldin View Post
Maybe off topic ... sorry ... but I would really consider SB Acoustics. As far as I know the guys have been working for SS before starting SB. Might not be as good as SS, but I think very close. Have seen a number of measurements in German speaker magazines, and they meassure really well. The new Satori (or an OEM version) is used in the new Wilson models, as far as I know ....
Baldin
Indeed SB should be mentioned as their drivers are of excellent quality too. The Satori probably represents pretty much the best 6-7" driver that money can buy, that is if it's the kind of driver you are after. Extremely low distortion, excellent cone, but quite pricey. The only flaw with the cheaper SB offerings is that the breakup of the paper models is harder to deal with than if it was less pronounced.
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Old 20th April 2014, 04:14 PM   #18
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Here is a kit design using the Dayton RS drivers

Pennywise Series

total parts cost approximately $ 1250 from Parts Express

Best of Luck

Peter
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Old 20th April 2014, 05:19 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by PBNAUDIO View Post
Here is a kit design using the Dayton RS drivers

Pennywise Series

total parts cost approximately $ 1250 from Parts Express

Best of Luck

Peter
Those are NOT easy to drive
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Old 21st April 2014, 03:05 AM   #20
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Indeed SB should be mentioned as their drivers are of excellent quality too. The Satori probably represents pretty much the best 6-7" driver that money can buy, that is if it's the kind of driver you are after. Extremely low distortion, excellent cone, but quite pricey. The only flaw with the cheaper SB offerings is that the breakup of the paper models is harder to deal with than if it was less pronounced.
Scan Speak cost about the same and are of excellent quality as well.
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