Hello folks,
I thought this would be a good forum to ask regarding what features make speakers sound "big", as though they are filling the room with sound. I have been listening to a few speakers at stores, from little satellite ones to bigger floor standing ones. Some of the small speakers sound "small", while other small ones sound "large".
Is it a matter of frequency response or equilization? Like the presence of low bass, or maybe a upper base hump somewhere due to room acoustics or speaker setup?
Or maybe the dispersion of the drivers, in how they spray sound everywhere and it bounces around?
Maybe cabinet resonance, or driver distortion that causes "good" harmonics?
Or perhaps the question to ask is what tricks does Bose use to make their little speakers sound big?
I thought this would be a good forum to ask regarding what features make speakers sound "big", as though they are filling the room with sound. I have been listening to a few speakers at stores, from little satellite ones to bigger floor standing ones. Some of the small speakers sound "small", while other small ones sound "large".
Is it a matter of frequency response or equilization? Like the presence of low bass, or maybe a upper base hump somewhere due to room acoustics or speaker setup?
Or maybe the dispersion of the drivers, in how they spray sound everywhere and it bounces around?
Maybe cabinet resonance, or driver distortion that causes "good" harmonics?
Or perhaps the question to ask is what tricks does Bose use to make their little speakers sound big?
Beanbag,
I once asked a very similar question.
They way I phrased it was (using Klipsch speakers), why is it if I have a Heresy 12' away from my listening position and it's playing for example, 100 db's loud.... and then I switch to Khorns 12' away and they are also playing at 100db's, why do the Khorns sound so much bigger?
To paraphrase the answer....
Think of a flashlight with a variable beam.
The Heresy's are on a narrow beam of light and inside that beam is the 100db intensity. Step outside that beam and their SPL drops off quickly.
Change to the Khorn and all the sudden the width of that beam is several times wider so now, you have the same 100 db's of loudness in many more places and you can move around while keeping that same level.
I don't know if that's the legit logic or not but it worked enough to shut me up! (which might have been their goal all along)
I once asked a very similar question.
They way I phrased it was (using Klipsch speakers), why is it if I have a Heresy 12' away from my listening position and it's playing for example, 100 db's loud.... and then I switch to Khorns 12' away and they are also playing at 100db's, why do the Khorns sound so much bigger?
To paraphrase the answer....
Think of a flashlight with a variable beam.
The Heresy's are on a narrow beam of light and inside that beam is the 100db intensity. Step outside that beam and their SPL drops off quickly.
Change to the Khorn and all the sudden the width of that beam is several times wider so now, you have the same 100 db's of loudness in many more places and you can move around while keeping that same level.
I don't know if that's the legit logic or not but it worked enough to shut me up! (which might have been their goal all along)
In my experience power response, wide bandwith and lack of compression. Fully horn loaded with proper power response sounds big. Line arrays with low compression sound big. Some systems can sound big with simple music but most fail when the music gets complex. This is one of the main reasons I build my own speaker systems. Little sound to me is best handled by earphones.
I believe the answer to the question "what makes them sound 'big?'" is effective surface area of the radiating acoustic source...more being better.
For direct radiating loudspeakers, splashing a lot of sound around the room like Bose does makes them sound bigger but they lose their imaging/ coherence due to this trick. More surface area of direct radiators sound big.
Dipole radiators are doing the same thing, but there are drawbacks due to their extremely poor off-axis polar response that limits the listening position to a "head in a vise" listening area of your room. It also requires a very large room of the right proportions and the speakers to be placed out onto the floor of the room in very objectionable positions - at least 6 feet (2 metres) from any wall. This isn't my cup of tea.
Large horn-loaded systems are pretty spectacular, IMHO. I once heard a pair of Klipsch KP-600s which come in three very large stacked units each side in a room the size of a school classroom with high ceiling - and they were definitely "big".
The Klipsch Jubilees that I live with are definitely huge in sound stage and also retain their imaging performance. Nothing else that I've heard in a home environment does this.
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but you could also ask what makes some speakers better than others, and still have the same answers
you could even have one speaker that sounds fantastic with some music, but fails completely with the rest
and then another where it is the exact opposite
and both are mistakes
a good speaker always gets the best out of every recording
but you could also ask what makes some speakers better than others, and still have the same answers
you could even have one speaker that sounds fantastic with some music, but fails completely with the rest
and then another where it is the exact opposite
and both are mistakes
a good speaker always gets the best out of every recording
On the bottom end, when listening with other speakers not connected, you are actually getting a small boost from them since you are pressurizing their woofers and adding to the whole. The passive radiator effect so to speak
The bass range now has a ripe inaccurate presentation
Take those speakers out ( not practical ) and they would sound completely different in that room.
Regards
David
The bass range now has a ripe inaccurate presentation
Take those speakers out ( not practical ) and they would sound completely different in that room.
Regards
David
Because bigger speakers have more bass for less watts and less excursions. Why complicate things. I guess but I don't know that has it something to do with the dynamic range of music. I remember buying a CD with radiohit mixes because I wanted one particular track. It sounded terrible on my home system. I gave it away, on a more restricted system, not playing loud it should probably have sounded ok.
"What gives speakers a "big sound"? "
good question
I have noticed that in good stores, where you can go from room to room, and select speakers to listen to, often you can have a series of speakers from the same manufacturer, and as you go in the line from small bookshelf speaker, which sounds small, to big floorstanding speaker, which sounds much bigger...often you can see the same tweeters and midranges used across the line...so it has to be the woofers which makes the speaker sound "big"
or in other words, how deep and effortless the speaker sounds, then it sounds "big"
simple experiment can reveal, that small bookshelf speaker, which sounds "small", can sound big, if relieved from low fr duties, but helped with good sounding subwoofer
that's why those old consoles sound big, as they often have big solid construction which supports deep effortless bass
that's how I see it
good question
I have noticed that in good stores, where you can go from room to room, and select speakers to listen to, often you can have a series of speakers from the same manufacturer, and as you go in the line from small bookshelf speaker, which sounds small, to big floorstanding speaker, which sounds much bigger...often you can see the same tweeters and midranges used across the line...so it has to be the woofers which makes the speaker sound "big"
or in other words, how deep and effortless the speaker sounds, then it sounds "big"
simple experiment can reveal, that small bookshelf speaker, which sounds "small", can sound big, if relieved from low fr duties, but helped with good sounding subwoofer
that's why those old consoles sound big, as they often have big solid construction which supports deep effortless bass
that's how I see it
I vote for slightly bumped and low-distortion bass. Like Adason said, in a line of speakers the difference is usually in the bass. But they also know that the customer wants to hear what he sees - lots of bass from multiple bass drvers - and they are voiced that way.
Old school amplifiers had loudness switch or dial (Yamaha) to give warmth at low levels and those usually boosted frequencies below 500Hz, higher than bass contour dial.
Too many speakers have bump around 50-100Hz because of too high reflex tuning, Then add lack of baffle step compensation and you get notch between 200-400Hz. This kind of speakers do not sound big!
Old school amplifiers had loudness switch or dial (Yamaha) to give warmth at low levels and those usually boosted frequencies below 500Hz, higher than bass contour dial.
Too many speakers have bump around 50-100Hz because of too high reflex tuning, Then add lack of baffle step compensation and you get notch between 200-400Hz. This kind of speakers do not sound big!
Low distortion for me as well. Dual subs or more cut down on the need to push levels to distortion. Good bass deepens heightens and widens sound stage, if set up well. it pulls the midrange and highs out and expands everything. I set my bass so its subtle but there adding some heft to the over all sound, but not over whelm it and draw your attention. its easy to let subs overwhelm. good bass should carry the sound stage and also compliment it as a whole. But its easy to kill it, set up wrong can put vocals where they should not be etc, and create other problems. practice restriction. I got things close to where they want them. I will focus more on room acoustics. Very easy to make bass, more challenge to tune it up well.
Yup..
The thread poster is talking about a large soundstage with good venue effects.. NOT large images.
In this case it's mostly down to lower mechanical damping of the driver's diaphragm (and it's excursion) along with low freq. extension. Certain dispersion characteristics add to this.
One of the easiest ways to show this result is by altering the fiber "fill" right near a relativly low mechanical damping driver in-box (particularly as it relates to the surround). Remove it and the soundstage should "grow in size", or alternatively add to it and watch it "shrink".
I notice that with a kef 104/2 ref : lot of energy in mid bass made them sound big under proper conditions (not to huge room and strong enough amp). and they are 50 hz/ -2 DB (i think they said -2 on the datasheet not -3 db!)
Is the total Q factor of the speaker contribute to the "big sound" ? > 0.7 QT ?
I set up a modest stereo in my local bakery. 5 1/4 2ways plus an 8 inch ported sub. Sounds pretty good. Old brick building, the space is about 24 feet wide, 14feet high, maybe 60 feet deep. On saturdays a local jazz group comes in to practice and the thing is, a tenor sax played politely sounds huge in that room. No mike, amp, speaker; it's just a big, real, sound. The mouth of a tenor sax is about that of a 10 or 12 inch woofer, so I suggest that it is not just size that matters. The dynamic aspect of live music is the real challenge, loudness is easier to achieve.
About languages, the OP questions if it is about bass level or spatial hearing. To me, "big" sound is low distortion with even room response - slightly declining to highs. Boosting below 4-500Hz makes sound "bigger" for me. I have done lots of in-room measurements of my systems in two different rooms and with many different type of spekaer and subs. I have developed the ability to "hear" the sound I see in measurements, but I trust this only for my rooms! We must look at RTA, short and long gated FR, decay waterfalls, EDT, T30,
A very reverberant room or poorly set up multichannel system (5.1) spreads sound all over but I can't call this "big" sound, not even " big sounstage".
A very reverberant room or poorly set up multichannel system (5.1) spreads sound all over but I can't call this "big" sound, not even " big sounstage".
For me two things:
Dynamic ability without compression
Wide frequency range.
Note worthy that my favourite 'home' systems tend to sound 'open' rather than big, and thus very natural and more high fidelity.
The reality is I've only heard this achieved with 3-way systems and a large bass speaker - i.e. 10".
For a real big sound, look at using 'pro' drivers, and make sure you have a seriously large listening room.
Dynamic ability without compression
Wide frequency range.
Note worthy that my favourite 'home' systems tend to sound 'open' rather than big, and thus very natural and more high fidelity.
The reality is I've only heard this achieved with 3-way systems and a large bass speaker - i.e. 10".
For a real big sound, look at using 'pro' drivers, and make sure you have a seriously large listening room.
I would say that bass response and the ability of the speaker to remain linear and distortion-free regardless of volume are the cues that allow them to sound 'big' when appropriate.
I think it's an audiophile myth that there are 'golden optimums' where everything falls into place and an audio device (be it minimalist amplifier or speaker) performs brilliantly on all recordings and in all situations. The reality is much more messy. The closest we ever get is equipment that is objectively linear and flat over the full audio spectrum as far as we can make it - and that rules out minimalist amplifiers and speakers. And even then with speakers the listening position and room interaction have a great influence on what is possible.
(In my opinion)
Respectfully, I don't agree. I think that to get the best out of a recording with attenuated treble the speaker would need an exaggerated top end, and for a bass-shy recording vice versa. But it would vary with volume, listening position etc. etc.
I think it's an audiophile myth that there are 'golden optimums' where everything falls into place and an audio device (be it minimalist amplifier or speaker) performs brilliantly on all recordings and in all situations. The reality is much more messy. The closest we ever get is equipment that is objectively linear and flat over the full audio spectrum as far as we can make it - and that rules out minimalist amplifiers and speakers. And even then with speakers the listening position and room interaction have a great influence on what is possible.
(In my opinion)
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