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Old 19th March 2014, 09:28 PM   #1
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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Default High Efficiency. Definition and Resolution...on a Bargain Basement Budget

This thread grew out of several threads that I've been following of late, namely Lynn Olson's "Beyond the Ariel" and "Western Electric 15A Small SATO Horn".

I had just posted on the SATO thread when I noticed that an old friend, Greg Monfort (GM or Altec on various forums) had also posted. Anyway, afterwards Greg suggested that I start a new thread rather than muddle up someone else's thread...and here we are! I intend to copy and paste the parts of the other thread that lead up to this thread.



Whereas I would like to finalize my design with a SATO horn, I will be building this speaker in a number of stages toward some (yet unrealized, nor totally planned) final design.

To protect myself from future criticism, I'll mention right now that this project may turn out to be more about the journey itself than the final destination (Yes, I do like sailboats more than powerboats!). Hopefully, we may get into some interesting approaches (or even solutions) to problems that are encountered from time to time.



Best Regards,

Terry Olson
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Last edited by TerryO; 19th March 2014 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 19th March 2014, 09:33 PM   #2
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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Here's were it started:

Quote:
mdross1:

I've seen the the same You-Tube clip and I found it interesting enough to actually consider building one (OK, actually a pair of the Sato horns. So far, I'll start by using what I have handy. The bass unit looks like it will consist of 18 inch woofers to around 300Hz, handed over to a High-Efficency (8 inch) Mid-Woofer up to around 3-4 kHz, then to some sort of temporary Horn tweeter combination until I can start the Sato Horns.
I'm in no hurry and don't have a lot of money, so this will be a slow, methodical project that shouldn't outrun my grasp of the technical aspects involved!

Best Regards,
TerryO
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Old 19th March 2014, 09:41 PM   #3
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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Then:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryO
The bass unit looks like it will consist of 18 inch woofers to around 300Hz, handed over to a High-Efficency (8 inch) Mid-Woofer up to around 3-4 kHz, then to some sort of temporary Horn tweeter combination until I can start the Sato Horns.


Greets!

Long time no hear! Hope you’re fully recovered now.

OBs are what W.E. originally used, which is a horn’s acoustic mate, so definitely moving in the right direction, though in theory, dual horizontally opposed 18” would be more appropriate for this horn’s mouth area, which would then allow a lower XO point and/or lower slope order at high efficiency.

A well damped 8” is a good choice for a 4 kHz XO point and the Eminence Delta Pro 8A with its low Qts, natural decay at both ~400 & 3 kHz may be the ‘hot ticket’ for your OB, minimizing XO insertion losses.

This high up, inexpensive compression drivers become a viable super tweeter horn option for all but the most acute hearing among us, so I’ve found it best to let the females decide what’s acceptable.

Anyway, this needs a thread of its own……………….

GM
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Old 19th March 2014, 10:04 PM   #4
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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I might mention right now that I have a pair of Eminance (Beta 8) drivers already, that I'll probably use. I believe that they're the same model drivers as the pair that Bud Purvine uses to supplement the Lowther drivers on his latest open baffle/no baffle speakers. ( BTW: They are absolutely excellent sounding speakers!)

Best Regards,
TerryO
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Old 20th March 2014, 12:56 AM   #5
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I'm on the same trip as you Terry......different path though.

So I picked up a pair of Dayton 10" round waveguides and loaded them with Celestion 1746 CDs and paired that with an open baffle mounted Celestion TF1020 10" woofer. Let me say that this budget woofer is amazingly smooth and controlled with a tone that screams 1970's vinyl.....a real bargain IMO. No access to a DSP right now so in the process of modeling and plugging in some components to work out a network but so far I'm extremely impressed.

Not completely settled on the bottom end but seriously considering Nelson Pass' slot loaded OB approach with a sealed 18 for 30hz on down.

Look fwd to your progress.
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Old 20th March 2014, 02:21 AM   #6
winslow is offline winslow  United States
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What about the Celestion compression drivers?
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Old 20th March 2014, 04:13 AM   #7
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Celestion cone drivers: Agree on the TF1020, sleeper midrange, great sound for the $$ - try the 1530 woofer for bass they are equally as good of value. The mids are excellent with the 15 too. Maybe roll them in around 150 Hz below the 10 they will only go to 45 though in the bass. The sealed back mids aren't so great but the compression drivers seem to be as good as you can get. my 2 cents
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Old 20th March 2014, 04:37 AM   #8
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryO View Post
I might mention right now that I have a pair of Eminance (Beta 8) drivers already, that I'll probably use.
Beta-8A? If so, looks like an inductor around 1 kHz and use one or more of those tiny 'FR' drivers for a super tweeter, so that you can just cap it off.

If the 8A sounds too rough up high, then a proper XO with an econo horn is a currently popular choice.

Details of Bud's setup?

GM
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Old 20th March 2014, 06:43 AM   #9
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
Beta-8A? If so, looks like an inductor around 1 kHz and use one or more of those tiny 'FR' drivers for a super tweeter, so that you can just cap it off.

If the 8A sounds too rough up high, then a proper XO with an econo horn is a currently popular choice.

Details of Bud's setup?

GM
Hi Greg,

Bud crosses over the Beta 8A's a lot lower than I'm thinking of, but if its too rough then I'll probably need to look at a Delta Pro 8A, like your initial suggestion. Right now nothing is completely off the table that's within reason.

Greg, about Bud's speakers, I'll call him tomorrow and just relay the information, rather than trusting my less than perfect memory!


Best Regards,
TerryO
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Last edited by TerryO; 20th March 2014 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 20th March 2014, 10:11 PM   #10
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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Because I alluded to this during an exchange with Greg Monfort in my previous post, I should mention that I just finished talking to Bud Purvine on the phone.

His Open Baffle/No Baffle speakers consist of a pair of Dual Transmission Line Sub/Bass Units from Planet10 using two CSS SD-7 Woofers per side. These hand off to a pair of Eminance "Delta 8" (16 ohm, 8" drivers) which, in turn cross over to Lowther PM-6A drivers (Silver Voice Coil, 16 ohm) for the high end. Bud mentioned that this Lowther configuration also sports a 3 mm X-max, instead of 1 mm. I forgot to get the specs on the crossover which Bud originally did by ear. He later called in our local Crossover Wizard, Dave Rosgaard to measure and correct any problems. Dave measured them and ended up lowering the treble by approximately one dB to get it right on the money. As you may suspect, all the drivers have received Bud's "enABLE" treatment.

While talking to Bud, he mentioned that he's added a "Super Tweeter" since I last heard the speaker about a month ago.

Best Regards,
TerryO

PS: I mentioned previously that Bud had Eminance "Beta-8" sprakers , when it turns out that his are actually "Delta 8" woofers, although mine remain Beta-8's...my sincere apologies for the error.
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Last edited by TerryO; 20th March 2014 at 10:21 PM.
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