I have plans to build a 2-way design with a 15" driver (housed in a 5.75 cuft cabinet) covering 40-ish to 1200-ish and a WG (probably SEOS-15 or H290C) with a Radian 475PB covering 1200-ish and up, to replace a set of Altec 19's I've really enjoyed but do not wish to keep. My question is this...I already have a pair of 2225H's (recently reconed) and the 475PB's, but a pair of barely broken in TD15M's has become available to me for a pretty decent price. I'm quite familiar with the well regarded reputation the TD15M has earned for itself, but also know the 2225H isn't exactly a slouch at doing what I want it to do. I have about $250 tied up in the pair of JBL's and would have to almost double that to get into the AE's. Would the performance return on the additional investment for the AE's be worth it....keeping in mind that I'd like to match, preferably improve upon, the performance of the Altec 416 I've been enjoying?
Thanks,
Michael
Thanks,
Michael
I really don't think you'll find a driver that will be significantly better then the 2225 from FB to 1200. I never had the TD15M but have a whole stable of TAD, Altec, JBL, Celestion , EV, PHL, RCF, 18 Sound, B&C ect here in 15" size and the 2225 is the best one as a direct radiator to 1200.00 cycles. Not the best in the bass but the midrange is excellent as is the upper range to 1200. The driver you mention seems to be a good one (pretty extended beyond 1200 if you trust their measurement graph) but better? Probably not.
What kind of answer are you looking for? A technical comparison? Measurements? Subjective opinions?
Subjectively everyone that I know of who has compared the 2226's (similar to 2225's) has preferred the TD15M's and said that they are worth the extra cash. The TD15M's are actually very cheap, a new pair of JBL's would cost much more.
The 416's are by many considered to be the best sounding mid-bass there is, And a recent example is Gary Dahl who replaced his TD15M's with the GPA version of the 416. (see; http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-1103.html)
Some people claim it has to do with the high quality and very soft suspension and Alnico motor.
The measurements done on this page:
https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se, indicates that the TD12M performs better than the 414's (416's little brother) and the rest of the pro-sound drivers in the comparison:
Subjectively everyone that I know of who has compared the 2226's (similar to 2225's) has preferred the TD15M's and said that they are worth the extra cash. The TD15M's are actually very cheap, a new pair of JBL's would cost much more.
The 416's are by many considered to be the best sounding mid-bass there is, And a recent example is Gary Dahl who replaced his TD15M's with the GPA version of the 416. (see; http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/100392-beyond-ariel-1103.html)
Some people claim it has to do with the high quality and very soft suspension and Alnico motor.
The measurements done on this page:
https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se, indicates that the TD12M performs better than the 414's (416's little brother) and the rest of the pro-sound drivers in the comparison:
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A general consensus, if one exists. But any info is certainly welcome...I'll get it all sorted out.
But I'm getting very good, helpful info so far, so thanks for the replies and keep 'em coming.
Hi Michael,
With today's knowledge base, I do not think you will find support for a 1,200Hz Xover between a 15" woofer and a 1" compression driver in the best reviewed diyAudio theads. Dr. Geddes recommends 800Hz with his large OS waveguide for low SPL home use. Lynn Olson's thread favors using a 1.4" compression driver with a 700-800Hz Xover up to ~16Khz.
There are DIY steep-slope 800Hz crossovers for the Altec 19.
At the crossover frequency, it is important to have the polar response of the woofer match the polar response of the horn/waveguide. At 1,200Hz, the polar response of a TD15M is below 60 degrees, and this abrupt change in directivity to a SEOS-15 90x40 waveguide will be easily noticed... the modern definition of horn-honk.
Classic: horn-honk is caused by poor mouth termination, and/or rapid flare rate changes within a horn or waveguide.
Modern: horn-honk is from abrupt changes of polar response between cone and horn transducers in a loudspeaker system.
Lower Xover frequency? 1.4" compression driver? Larger waveguide?
Reduced dispersion horn... 60x40?
I own TD15Ms -- great speakers.
With today's knowledge base, I do not think you will find support for a 1,200Hz Xover between a 15" woofer and a 1" compression driver in the best reviewed diyAudio theads. Dr. Geddes recommends 800Hz with his large OS waveguide for low SPL home use. Lynn Olson's thread favors using a 1.4" compression driver with a 700-800Hz Xover up to ~16Khz.
There are DIY steep-slope 800Hz crossovers for the Altec 19.
At the crossover frequency, it is important to have the polar response of the woofer match the polar response of the horn/waveguide. At 1,200Hz, the polar response of a TD15M is below 60 degrees, and this abrupt change in directivity to a SEOS-15 90x40 waveguide will be easily noticed... the modern definition of horn-honk.
Classic: horn-honk is caused by poor mouth termination, and/or rapid flare rate changes within a horn or waveguide.
Modern: horn-honk is from abrupt changes of polar response between cone and horn transducers in a loudspeaker system.
Lower Xover frequency? 1.4" compression driver? Larger waveguide?
Reduced dispersion horn... 60x40?
I own TD15Ms -- great speakers.
1200 is fine between a tractrix 1" and a 15 if the 15 is up to snuff plus there are only a handful of 1" drivers that work at all down there though and the radian is one of them provided it 's in a big horn The SEOS waveguide I have surely isn't worth the time screwing around with that low - it's only a 12 (terrible excuse for a horn). Try a 300-400 flare tractrix horn -Some 15's are dreadful up that high but that's not horn honk. Horn honk is normally when people crossover too low to the treble horn and it comes from the horn/driver not the midbass driver. Two way direct radiators with horn/waveguide upper range always sound fake and disconnected to me so I'm biased Maybe the new JBL M2 will change my mind?
Maybe the new JBL M2 will change my mind?Geddes uses a relatively shallow slope and relatively high c-to-c spacing due to the round waveguide. With an asymmetric waveguide, you've got two reasons to cross a bit higher: closer spacing and earlier loss of pattern control. I'm doing 1350 with my TD15M + QSC waveguide right now, acoustic LR4.
On the other hand, the TD15M has a some resonant issues above ~900Hz. I don't think I'd be in a hurry to replace the JBL with them. I have never had the opportunity to compare the two in an equivalent, EQ'd to match system, but has anybody?
I have not taken sets of off-axis response in some time, but I think I would remember if that were even close to true - where are you getting that?
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I was looking at the augerpro drivervault polar data at 0_degrees and 40_degrees which shows ~6db SPL variation.
I have measurements of several other 15" drivers with similar polar response SPL vs. frequency plots. A 14" diameter moving cone matches to a ~970Hz wavelength.
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Just had a go at the JBL 2225 in a BR tuned to 55Hz. I agree with all of you, the 2225H sounds really nice. No complaints. Lots of drum snap, but not as freakishly snappy as the 2220H when hornloaded to 80Hz. The 2225H goes deep, not as deep as an Eminence LAB12 but sounds more musical and alive, so I can live with it. Probably plenty of room to EQ. I don't see a need for a sub, but will try it eventually.
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