150w is the absolute max that i decided i'd pick.
The optimum power i'd like is around 80-120w.
And yes i am looking for a clean/detailed solid sound.
Completely left-field suggestion:
http://www.studitech.ru/resque/manuals/volt/Volt_FR220-1.pdf
Crossover is included so you only need to plonk it in a suitable box.
Also comes as a mid-woofer in form of the Volt BM220.1
Volt Loudspeakers - BM220.1
http://www.studitech.ru/resque/manuals/volt/Volt_FR220-1.pdf
Crossover is included so you only need to plonk it in a suitable box.
Also comes as a mid-woofer in form of the Volt BM220.1
Volt Loudspeakers - BM220.1
Ok, now I understand a little better where you're coming from.
First thing I would suggest is that you take a good hard look at existing designs if you haven't done so already. Plain and simple, there is a greater probability that you'll get a better product in the end than what you can design on your own the 1st time around. Probably the 2nd time around too.
Regardless of that, it'll help to set your priorities:
- budget
- cabinet size
- F3 (ie. low frequency extension - to sub or not to sub, or to 2-way or 3-way; even to go sealed or vented?)
- minimum impedance that your amp is happy with
- max required in-room SPL (room size?)
- amp wattage available and therefore, required sensitivity 1W/1m and driver power handling
- and for selecting drivers - maximum harmonic distortion levels (specifically, I zero in on the 3rd order harmonic distortion)
For your purposes, I would be looking at 20-20,000Hz and therefore a 3-way, probably with 2 woofers wired in parallel to add 6dB in sensitivity, probably sealed with a sub (altho vented would work too), using very good quality drivers that are capable of 100-105dB @ 1m after baffle step loss without exceeding xmax. That probably means speaker sensitivity in the 88-91dB 1W/1m range. How that fits your budget and cabinet size is up to you. Certainly other approaches exist and I'm sure others will suggest them.
In terms of designing, if you really, really have to go that route, once you decide on the above, then you start picking potential driver candidates and then you need to:
1 - put them into a box modelling program to see how they will or will not fit your above criteria
2 - sketch a possible baffle layout and simulate baffle diffraction effects
3 - trace or copy frequency and impedance graphs into usable files
4 - combine files from 1, 2 and 3 into a simulated in-box, on-baffle frequency response. Go back to steps 1 and/or 2 if it doesn't look good enough.
5 - load your results into a xo simulation program and design the xo. Begin to soon start banging your head against a wall......
6 - build it, listen and then tweak by ear (with all the extra xo components you happen to have lying around)
7 - start again and repeat as necessary
For more detail, start reading The Speaker Building Bible.
I like UniBox - Unified Box Model for Loudspeaker Design for a box modelling program, but WinISD is also popular (LinearTeam) as well as The Woofer Box and Circuit Designer, (Loudspeaker Design Software).
For baffle diffraction:
Loudspeaker Design Software
Tolvan Data
Baffle Diffraction Simulator
For file combining:
Loudspeaker Design Software
Frequency Response Combiner - FRD File Processor
And for the xo, Passive Crossover Designer:
Loudspeaker Design Software
Ordinarily,I would just suggest a pair of the Kairos - http://meniscusaudio.com/images/The%20Kairos%20Monitor%20Speaker%20by%20Jeff%20Bagby.pdf, maybe with a sub. I think a large number here will agree that this is one of the best under $1000 DIY speakers currently available but I am not 100% sure it will meet your high SPL needs. Going with an MTM version would probably do the trick, but I can't remember right now if Jeff has designed one of those or not.
Cheers
First thing I would suggest is that you take a good hard look at existing designs if you haven't done so already. Plain and simple, there is a greater probability that you'll get a better product in the end than what you can design on your own the 1st time around. Probably the 2nd time around too.
Regardless of that, it'll help to set your priorities:
- budget
- cabinet size
- F3 (ie. low frequency extension - to sub or not to sub, or to 2-way or 3-way; even to go sealed or vented?)
- minimum impedance that your amp is happy with
- max required in-room SPL (room size?)
- amp wattage available and therefore, required sensitivity 1W/1m and driver power handling
- and for selecting drivers - maximum harmonic distortion levels (specifically, I zero in on the 3rd order harmonic distortion)
For your purposes, I would be looking at 20-20,000Hz and therefore a 3-way, probably with 2 woofers wired in parallel to add 6dB in sensitivity, probably sealed with a sub (altho vented would work too), using very good quality drivers that are capable of 100-105dB @ 1m after baffle step loss without exceeding xmax. That probably means speaker sensitivity in the 88-91dB 1W/1m range. How that fits your budget and cabinet size is up to you. Certainly other approaches exist and I'm sure others will suggest them.
In terms of designing, if you really, really have to go that route, once you decide on the above, then you start picking potential driver candidates and then you need to:
1 - put them into a box modelling program to see how they will or will not fit your above criteria
2 - sketch a possible baffle layout and simulate baffle diffraction effects
3 - trace or copy frequency and impedance graphs into usable files
4 - combine files from 1, 2 and 3 into a simulated in-box, on-baffle frequency response. Go back to steps 1 and/or 2 if it doesn't look good enough.
5 - load your results into a xo simulation program and design the xo. Begin to soon start banging your head against a wall......
6 - build it, listen and then tweak by ear (with all the extra xo components you happen to have lying around)
7 - start again and repeat as necessary
For more detail, start reading The Speaker Building Bible.
I like UniBox - Unified Box Model for Loudspeaker Design for a box modelling program, but WinISD is also popular (LinearTeam) as well as The Woofer Box and Circuit Designer, (Loudspeaker Design Software).
For baffle diffraction:
Loudspeaker Design Software
Tolvan Data
Baffle Diffraction Simulator
For file combining:
Loudspeaker Design Software
Frequency Response Combiner - FRD File Processor
And for the xo, Passive Crossover Designer:
Loudspeaker Design Software
Ordinarily,I would just suggest a pair of the Kairos - http://meniscusaudio.com/images/The%20Kairos%20Monitor%20Speaker%20by%20Jeff%20Bagby.pdf, maybe with a sub. I think a large number here will agree that this is one of the best under $1000 DIY speakers currently available but I am not 100% sure it will meet your high SPL needs. Going with an MTM version would probably do the trick, but I can't remember right now if Jeff has designed one of those or not.
Cheers
Many thanks for all the info. This will be very useful
And just a side note; I checked out those simulators and in my near 10 years in the IT Business (developper) I have never seen such complex apps made with MS Excel!
It boggles my mind..
Btw, i ordered a book by Vance Dickason : "The loud speaker design cookbook" I read some good feedback for that book.
Hi,
For a 2 way nearly all current 8" units are really bass units
for 3 ways and the only driver I like the look of is this :
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
If you want to build a classic old school 8" 2 way, not
that I'd recommend that until you really know what
you are doing. A good first build is :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy/amiga
You'd be better off just building the above and assimilating
a lot more knowledge before branching out on your own.
rgds, sreten.
For a 2 way nearly all current 8" units are really bass units
for 3 ways and the only driver I like the look of is this :
H1659-08 U22REX/P-SL
If you want to build a classic old school 8" 2 way, not
that I'd recommend that until you really know what
you are doing. A good first build is :
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy/amiga
You'd be better off just building the above and assimilating
a lot more knowledge before branching out on your own.
rgds, sreten.
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There's no MTM version of the kairos. However, it seems that there's an MTM adelphos (brother of the kairos, with typical LR4 slopes and flat baffle). Doesn't seem like it's readily available on the meniscus website though, maybe one has to email them for it.
That woofer is very clean out to 6k. The only problem then is what tweeter can cross low enough for it to work in a 2 way design.
After doing a little searching, that's not quite correct. Jeff has done 2 new designs with the Satori and a Raal tweeter - a TM and MTM (the Adelphos still use the SB tweeter). Sensitivity on the MTM will be about 90.5dB. They should be available from Meniscus relatively soon but I expect them to be considerably more expensive because of the Raal's.
Ray Alden's book is pretty good too.
Speaker Building 201 Book | 500-044
Something else that may factor into your decisions is speaker placement - are these for near field studio use or for more traditional 3 meter'ish farfield listening? Nearfield use doesn't have to be quite so loud but typically a whole slew of drivers (like an MTMWW for eg) don't sum as well up that close.
For farfield use, this might be another good candidate (~90dB sensitivity and will handle all the power you want to throw at them):
Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower
For nearfield use, something along these lines might be in order:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?40414-New-studio-monitor-project
More Fairfield use i'd say 3-4 meters apart sounds about right. I need to get an overall loud immersion through the room to emulate, to a small degree, a much larger venue.
Thing is, when i work audio edits/mixes i need to get a feeling of what it might sound like on a much much larger system. The louder and clearer i can listen to, the more i can pinpoint volume differences between cuts/merges, faults/flaws in the mix's various cuts and added effects (etc,etc..).
Also, i just like a good clean loud sound for simple music listening.
I like to immerse myself in the song.
Thing is, when i work audio edits/mixes i need to get a feeling of what it might sound like on a much much larger system. The louder and clearer i can listen to, the more i can pinpoint volume differences between cuts/merges, faults/flaws in the mix's various cuts and added effects (etc,etc..).
Also, i just like a good clean loud sound for simple music listening.
I like to immerse myself in the song.
More Fairfield use i'd say 3-4 meters apart sounds about right. I need to get an overall loud immersion through the room to emulate, to a small degree, a much larger venue.
Thing is, when i work audio edits/mixes i need to get a feeling of what it might sound like on a much much larger system. The louder and clearer i can listen to, the more i can pinpoint volume differences between cuts/merges, faults/flaws in the mix's various cuts and added effects (etc,etc..).
Also, i just like a good clean loud sound for simple music listening.
I like to immerse myself in the song.
If this is what you want then I really do recommend you build a three way with a large bass driver. The Zaph three way linked to before uses very cost effective high performance drivers and will give you what I think you want.
Two ways simply do not do what you are asking, not unless you build something like a Gedlee design.
Alright then, i'll start investigating a 3-way design and look more into that Zaph design that was linked earlier (Looked pretty decent).
In the meantime, I should be getting my books in the mail next week. I'll read up and pick out some cheap parts and start working on a simple 2-way system to just make it work. Better to start at the beginning then go too far too soon.
In the meantime, I should be getting my books in the mail next week. I'll read up and pick out some cheap parts and start working on a simple 2-way system to just make it work. Better to start at the beginning then go too far too soon.
I am considering it as a viable option as well, i found myself very interested in that type of system, but i do need an overall better understanding of crossovers and speaker designs in general. Best way to do that, imo, is get knowledge, pick out some cheap parts and try to make it all work using a standard system (Passive).
active is not always better , especiallly if you're using modern hifi/pro drivers that is reasonably smooth, i just think that beginner builder prefer active because its easy to adjust and create a proper transfer function and freq shaping than passive.
i build both, active using minidsp, if you got a proper dac, u will notice that the minidsp introduce its own sound, which you may or maynot accept it.
the biggest improvement in 3way is that the midrange just better in every way, and sound projection much more relax with great placement, of course usually better BASS if you are using >10" woofer
, especiallly if you're using modern hifi/pro drivers that is reasonably smooth, i just think that beginner builder prefer active because its easy to adjust and create a proper transfer function and freq shaping than passive.i build both, active using minidsp, if you got a proper dac, u will notice that the minidsp introduce its own sound, which you may or maynot accept it.
the biggest improvement in 3way is that the midrange just better in every way, and sound projection much more relax with great placement, of course usually better BASS if you are using >10" woofer
I'll second this recommendation. The flexibility to tweak anytime without having to wait for parts to arrive is a huge advantage. Many designers have a miniDSP (or similar) for nothing more than tweaking out the crossover prior to making the passive network. Or like I do, model the passive, then use the miniDSP to prove the accuracy. Cuts cost of parts required and this alone is a major expense, often more than the drivers themselves.
35+ years ago I would have killed to have what I can do with active DSP based solution today. Let alone trying to find quality parts on a kids budget in a small town.
I need to get an overall loud immersion through the room to emulate, to a small degree, a much larger venue.
Also, i just like a good clean loud sound for simple music listening.
I like to immerse myself in the song.
You definitely need a 3-way, free the mid driver of bass duties !
But 3 ways are much more complex to design, especially passive.
My recommendations:
- Find an already made 3-way like those of Troels or mine
- Go active with a high quality DSP like the Hypex DCLP that can be easily configured with a PC.
Regards,
Danny
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