I built some speakers just for fun (see pic). They are based on the Overnight Sensation MT - HiVi B4N woofer, same box size but with tweeters from and old pair of Minimus 7's (always disliked the Minimus 7's). To me, for what they are, the B4N setup sounds incredible. The wife thinks so too. I also let 5 other people hear them (all non-experts like me) and all they did was gape in astonishment that all this sound was coming from these little buggers.
Here's the problem. I built these to try and learn something about crossovers. I tried all kinds of crossover arrangements including the exact crossover used in the OS MT's. I can clearly hear the differences in the different setups but they all sound good to me. To prove my tin ear theory, right now I have these running with a simple first order crossover - 0.4 mH on the woofer and 5.6uF on the tweeter. They still sound fabulous.
What am I missing? What should I be hearing that is wrong? Is there a science to listening to music?
Here's the problem. I built these to try and learn something about crossovers. I tried all kinds of crossover arrangements including the exact crossover used in the OS MT's. I can clearly hear the differences in the different setups but they all sound good to me. To prove my tin ear theory, right now I have these running with a simple first order crossover - 0.4 mH on the woofer and 5.6uF on the tweeter. They still sound fabulous.
What am I missing? What should I be hearing that is wrong? Is there a science to listening to music?
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In a tiny 2-way like that, most of the character is just the woofer+box and horizontal dispersion will not change a lot with xover, so pretty drastic changes can be relatively subtle, subjectively.
That said, put one crossover on one and something else on the other, put it in mono, put the speakers somewhere near each other (maybe like the photo will do), and A/B between the two speakers, playing some different things. Also move around the room while you do that. I bet you'll start to find some better/worse sounds.
Then again, somewhat-flawed A vs. somewhat-flawed B can be a perpetual tossup
. That's why it's good to have a reference speaker on hand.
That said, put one crossover on one and something else on the other, put it in mono, put the speakers somewhere near each other (maybe like the photo will do), and A/B between the two speakers, playing some different things. Also move around the room while you do that. I bet you'll start to find some better/worse sounds.
Then again, somewhat-flawed A vs. somewhat-flawed B can be a perpetual tossup
. That's why it's good to have a reference speaker on hand.Hi,
The bassmid does have very nasty out of band peaks.
There is no science to listening to speakers, just long
term experience, the ones that are right stand the
test of time and the ones that are not, do not.
Meanwhile many will fool you in the short term,
but not long term, and the better your long
term reference, the better your judgement.
rgds, sreten.
I severely doubt they sound "fabulous" with a crude
1st order x/o, and most likely in all versions the
treble level has not been correctly adjusted.
The bassmid does have very nasty out of band peaks.
There is no science to listening to speakers, just long
term experience, the ones that are right stand the
test of time and the ones that are not, do not.
Meanwhile many will fool you in the short term,
but not long term, and the better your long
term reference, the better your judgement.
rgds, sreten.
I severely doubt they sound "fabulous" with a crude
1st order x/o, and most likely in all versions the
treble level has not been correctly adjusted.
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You gotta love this guy. Harsh, cruel, mean (junkyard dog mean) but straight to the point and an encyclopedia of knowledge. Thanks. I do have tin ears.
Hi there a: You can purchase several hundred dollars (thousand $ ?) worth of test gear, spend several months to a year learning the in-outs of testing and find some of the faults of your creations.....or just enjoy the music. Audio aficionados can always find faults, beware... testing and computer simulating may spoil your enjoyment. (Wife, violinist, adds: the whole result of Diyaudio is to enjoy the music, not a produce better models on paper/computer.) ....regards, Michael
It happens to everyone (to varying degree).
You want to know what is missing with your shallow tweeter's roll-off? Play rock music (Metallica, Joe Satriani or something) at sufficient SPL. If the electric guitar sound doesn't tear your ears then you just don't know yet how different it is listening to a better system.
You will know much more with experience.
What I have found is that something sounds good until you hear something substantially better than it. It is all relative. I was very happy with my three ways for a long time. They were terrible technically but they sounded better than most other speakers I had heard (which doesn't say a lot for those other speakers).
Once I heard some VERY good speakers I realized just how bad my 3 ways were. They just didn't sound good any more. Once you have heard really good, you will be able to spot not so good much more easily
edit: Note that if you are happy with what you have, you may be better off not seeking out and listening to something much better. In some ways ignorance is bliss
Tony.
Once I heard some VERY good speakers I realized just how bad my 3 ways were. They just didn't sound good any more. Once you have heard really good, you will be able to spot not so good much more easily
edit: Note that if you are happy with what you have, you may be better off not seeking out and listening to something much better. In some ways ignorance is bliss
Tony.
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It is also quite possible that they just aren't all that bad, and again without a frame of reference it is hard to know. Some simple test equipment and experience over time is all you really need.
Something else to bear in mind is that this is all about having fun (or should be) and imho believing that your hearing is not infallible is not a bad personal attribute at all.
Something else to bear in mind is that this is all about having fun (or should be) and imho believing that your hearing is not infallible is not a bad personal attribute at all.
If I may add a few words. Certainly there is folks who do it
just to enjoy music some more, but let's not forget DIYers
do it mostly because of a feeling being creative and satisfaction
that it's all been done for less money than it costs at a store, not
to mention of having something "nobody" else does. Being creative
makes people feel alive. You gotta be a guy to fully appreciate this
attitude, I mean "produce a better model on paper/computer"
and not just on computer, rather in reality.
Sreten is a good fellow I believe and I'm pretty sure he's
got good reasons for his approach.
I have to say when I first started trying to build crossovers I tried two approaches, one with a calibrated measuring mic shooting for perfect flat response, the other with just my ears.
The golden lesson is to trust your ears, even if they're not that good
YOU are the person listening, as others have said, over time you may find the set up you have now sounds to hot/bright and bring down the cap value, or adjust the tweeter pad...
I found with a lot of my early crossover prototypes that i made by ear, that the frequency response actually had a small hump between 6kHz and 10kHz, giving an impression of clarity that perhaps wasn't there. With very well (or mellow?) recordings they sounded great, but even a slightly badly recorded piece they became painful in a short period of time.
I highly recommend you try the trick of putting it in mono and alternating between crossover designs in each speaker, do it at high level with a number of recordings - take your time, and if you can blind test it (maybe get your wife to swap them round a few times and label them A and B... DON'T underestimate psycho-acoustic factors!)
There's no golden rule to what is right, I had a brief chat with the head of R&D at B&W about it, even at a big company like that, ultimately you go with what people enjoy lisening to the most. In this hobby more than any, we have plenty of possible, valid solutions... I'll stop babbling now
The golden lesson is to trust your ears, even if they're not that good
YOU are the person listening, as others have said, over time you may find the set up you have now sounds to hot/bright and bring down the cap value, or adjust the tweeter pad...
I found with a lot of my early crossover prototypes that i made by ear, that the frequency response actually had a small hump between 6kHz and 10kHz, giving an impression of clarity that perhaps wasn't there. With very well (or mellow?) recordings they sounded great, but even a slightly badly recorded piece they became painful in a short period of time.
I highly recommend you try the trick of putting it in mono and alternating between crossover designs in each speaker, do it at high level with a number of recordings - take your time, and if you can blind test it (maybe get your wife to swap them round a few times and label them A and B... DON'T underestimate psycho-acoustic factors!)
There's no golden rule to what is right, I had a brief chat with the head of R&D at B&W about it, even at a big company like that, ultimately you go with what people enjoy lisening to the most. In this hobby more than any, we have plenty of possible, valid solutions... I'll stop babbling now
I'll also reference Beranek's Law, since it seems appropriate here
It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.
It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.
It may not sound like it but I was paying the guy a compliment. I love his no nonsense
attitude. I've read a lot of Sreten's posts and enjoyed them.
Thanks all.
So it sounds to me that, unless your ears are really experienced, the majority will not readily recognize flaws in a speaker without serious extended listening or doing actual measurements (what we don't know wont hurt us).
And yes as some have said it could be that because I made them I just think they sound good. Its also probably just an illusion to my ears due to the fact that I have never heard such "BIG" sound coming from such little speakers. Very impressive to me.
I do have one Dayton ND20 tweeter that belongs in the Overnight Sensation. I'll set one of these up with the ND20 and Paul Carmody's crossover and do some extended listening and comparisons.
I was wondering if someone could suggest a music track or two that makes a speakers flaws become readily apparent. If so tell me what to listen for as well.
Thanks
So it sounds to me that, unless your ears are really experienced, the majority will not readily recognize flaws in a speaker without serious extended listening or doing actual measurements (what we don't know wont hurt us).
And yes as some have said it could be that because I made them I just think they sound good. Its also probably just an illusion to my ears due to the fact that I have never heard such "BIG" sound coming from such little speakers. Very impressive to me.
I do have one Dayton ND20 tweeter that belongs in the Overnight Sensation. I'll set one of these up with the ND20 and Paul Carmody's crossover and do some extended listening and comparisons.
I was wondering if someone could suggest a music track or two that makes a speakers flaws become readily apparent. If so tell me what to listen for as well.
Thanks
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