Here is an interesting experiment...
I have had a pair of Dynaudio Contour Mk 2's ( approx. £1,600 new) as rear channel speakers for about 6 years.
Now I have upgraded to Line arrays of BMR 's all round the Dynaudio's became surplus to requirement...Time to experiment!
I am very happy with the result, going active & being able to Eq the sound is a great step forward.
Replacing the phase distorting passive crossover in the critical upper midrange ( approx. 2KHz) with an active ( 24dB per octave) crossover is a fundamental change that brings a raft of benefits.
The new crossover point is 200Hz, but I can go as low as 40Hz or run the BMR full range in " Pure Direct" mode.
I used a Yamaha AV amp ( had it spare too!) with its built in active crossover and use the pre outs to run my own power amps on the BMR and the twin Dynaudio bass / mid drivers.
The end result is a pair of active monitors that easily outperform the original Dynaudio passive Contours.
I am very familiar with the Naim passive speakers ( £4K and £6K) which use twin bass mid plus a BMR.
The active Dynaudio's with BMR are much more coherent and have far better bass than the Naims.
I would encourage anyone to make use of the great value DSP / active crossovers in AV receivers which can be bought as last years models ( Richer Sounds etc) or even cheaper on the second hand market.
They allow great flexibility when modifying or designing your own speakers.
If wood work is not your forte.... You can buy lovely big "old school" speakers second hand for such low cost, then use an AV receiver plus new drivers to have some fun.
All the best
Derek.
PS, I now have a nice pair of Dynaudio Esotar tweeters for sale...!!
I have had a pair of Dynaudio Contour Mk 2's ( approx. £1,600 new) as rear channel speakers for about 6 years.
Now I have upgraded to Line arrays of BMR 's all round the Dynaudio's became surplus to requirement...Time to experiment!
I am very happy with the result, going active & being able to Eq the sound is a great step forward.
Replacing the phase distorting passive crossover in the critical upper midrange ( approx. 2KHz) with an active ( 24dB per octave) crossover is a fundamental change that brings a raft of benefits.
The new crossover point is 200Hz, but I can go as low as 40Hz or run the BMR full range in " Pure Direct" mode.
I used a Yamaha AV amp ( had it spare too!) with its built in active crossover and use the pre outs to run my own power amps on the BMR and the twin Dynaudio bass / mid drivers.
The end result is a pair of active monitors that easily outperform the original Dynaudio passive Contours.
I am very familiar with the Naim passive speakers ( £4K and £6K) which use twin bass mid plus a BMR.
The active Dynaudio's with BMR are much more coherent and have far better bass than the Naims.
I would encourage anyone to make use of the great value DSP / active crossovers in AV receivers which can be bought as last years models ( Richer Sounds etc) or even cheaper on the second hand market.
They allow great flexibility when modifying or designing your own speakers.
If wood work is not your forte.... You can buy lovely big "old school" speakers second hand for such low cost, then use an AV receiver plus new drivers to have some fun.
All the best
Derek.
PS, I now have a nice pair of Dynaudio Esotar tweeters for sale...!!
Attachments
modified BMR
Hi Markus,
I used my own OEM version of the 4.5inch Neo magnet BMR.
I tested an "off the shelf" driver from CSS a few years ago when it first came out, its good but it did not suit my cabinet designs and was designed to be used without Eq. ie it was compromised to try and work with passive crossovers.
I been slowly experimenting and refining the cone construction, damping & materials and also the spider & suspension. The very complex flexing / balancing of the cone is a world of weird ...But by taking my time and just changing one tiny detail at a time I have arrived at a great sounding combination.
See attached pics...I have had several versions built for testing, with different chassis, internal or external surrounds and different cone materials / damping.
The Neo magnet is also very important as the large ferrite magnets cause really bad reflections.
I have a bunch of measurements that have taken me years to understand, they are very counterintuitive, even in single driver designs...In Line Arrays you can forget everything you use to understand conventional drivers....Interpreting BMR measurements is not the same at all.
I will be posting a range of independent tests and measurements on a new website in a couple of months.
What I can say right now is that the driver has a walk around / stand up or sit down room filling balance that is astonishing...So even and smooth our ears don't regard it as a speaker.
Cheers
D.
Hi Markus,
I used my own OEM version of the 4.5inch Neo magnet BMR.
I tested an "off the shelf" driver from CSS a few years ago when it first came out, its good but it did not suit my cabinet designs and was designed to be used without Eq. ie it was compromised to try and work with passive crossovers.
I been slowly experimenting and refining the cone construction, damping & materials and also the spider & suspension. The very complex flexing / balancing of the cone is a world of weird ...But by taking my time and just changing one tiny detail at a time I have arrived at a great sounding combination.
See attached pics...I have had several versions built for testing, with different chassis, internal or external surrounds and different cone materials / damping.
The Neo magnet is also very important as the large ferrite magnets cause really bad reflections.
I have a bunch of measurements that have taken me years to understand, they are very counterintuitive, even in single driver designs...In Line Arrays you can forget everything you use to understand conventional drivers....Interpreting BMR measurements is not the same at all.
I will be posting a range of independent tests and measurements on a new website in a couple of months.
What I can say right now is that the driver has a walk around / stand up or sit down room filling balance that is astonishing...So even and smooth our ears don't regard it as a speaker.
Cheers
D.
Attachments
Cant find the HiWave BMS65
Hi Markus,
That does look like a rough driver, but I have seen worse BMR's!
I cant find any details on the HiWave BMS65 , can you post a spec sheet or link to details?
I have attached ta couple of standard " off the shelf" BMR spec sheets with on and off axis measurements...My driver actually does not measure quite as good but it sounds way, way better!
Interesting that the ferrite version still measures well but sounds unnatural and uncomfortable in comparison to the otherwise identical Neo version.
Cheers
D.
Hi Markus,
That does look like a rough driver, but I have seen worse BMR's!
I cant find any details on the HiWave BMS65 , can you post a spec sheet or link to details?
I have attached ta couple of standard " off the shelf" BMR spec sheets with on and off axis measurements...My driver actually does not measure quite as good but it sounds way, way better!
Interesting that the ferrite version still measures well but sounds unnatural and uncomfortable in comparison to the otherwise identical Neo version.
Cheers
D.
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Thanks Markus,
I have tried a few of the small BMR's, both square and round, but to my ears they just don't sound good at all.
They are so small and inefficient that they needs lots of power to produce any decent volume....They have tiny voice coils so they cant handle ant power...Vicious circle!
They do measure well though!
Hi Lojzek,
Yes the Dynaudio Esotar tweeters are for sale...I just had a PM about them, maybe a friend of yours...Nikola?!
I have to dash right now but PM me about the tweeters, one is perfect, the other has a few crease marks on the silk dome, both face plates are perfect and both drivers work perfectly.
Cheers
D.
I have tried a few of the small BMR's, both square and round, but to my ears they just don't sound good at all.
They are so small and inefficient that they needs lots of power to produce any decent volume....They have tiny voice coils so they cant handle ant power...Vicious circle!
They do measure well though!
Hi Lojzek,
Yes the Dynaudio Esotar tweeters are for sale...I just had a PM about them, maybe a friend of yours...Nikola?!
I have to dash right now but PM me about the tweeters, one is perfect, the other has a few crease marks on the silk dome, both face plates are perfect and both drivers work perfectly.
Cheers
D.
Measurements
Hi Panson,
Once everything is finalised with the grills and felt baffle cover I am going to pay for a full suite of independent test and measurements, indoor as well as anechoic and some out door.
This should be ready in March.
You can test out any of the commercially available BMR's, they all have measurements on line.
I suggest avoiding passive crossovers or Eq at all costs as most BMR's have low sensitivity / efficiency and passive components just burn off the all ready limited power handling.
Good luck!
D.
Hi Panson,
Once everything is finalised with the grills and felt baffle cover I am going to pay for a full suite of independent test and measurements, indoor as well as anechoic and some out door.
This should be ready in March.
You can test out any of the commercially available BMR's, they all have measurements on line.
I suggest avoiding passive crossovers or Eq at all costs as most BMR's have low sensitivity / efficiency and passive components just burn off the all ready limited power handling.
Good luck!
D.
http://www.christienellis.co.uk/images/stories/ce/hificritic_trk1.pdf
http://www.christienellis.co.uk/images/stories/ce/hificritic_trk2.pdf
Hi, Good luck trying to find the CSS drivers, rgds, sreten.
http://www.christienellis.co.uk/images/stories/ce/hificritic_trk2.pdf
Hi, Good luck trying to find the CSS drivers, rgds, sreten.
Another interesting design.
What DSP-capable AVR are you using which has a built-in active crossover? To date, I'm only aware of the Onkyo.
What DSP-capable AVR are you using which has a built-in active crossover? To date, I'm only aware of the Onkyo.
OA in your opinion why do you think the market offers little better than mediocre to pathetic BMR's? By the way I ask this shows prejudice against BMR's in general and is do to this lack of quality. OEM spec'd is in another class, as a manufacture, thus not lending itself to DIY. This is a genuine Q. Not bating 🙂
AV recievers with crossovers & DSP
Hi Colin,
Any modern AV amp can be used, ie run the main speakers ( BMR) as front right / left and then the "sub out" to a separate power amp and run the bass / low mid drivers from that amp.
My 3 year old RXV765 Yamaha has graphic Eq available on all 5 channels down to 63Hz and up to about 16KHz from memory.
At the moment I am not using the graphic Eq, I am using the built in Parametric Eq in JRiver, USB out into a Meridian Explorer DAC, TOS link optical out into the AV amp and then using the inbuilt DAC's ( Burr Brown) in the AV amp to convert D to A.
It really is surprizing how good AV amps are when just used as processors / Pre amps.... I am using my own power amp on the BMR's and an Audiolab power amp on the Subs.
If you have a good AV amp you can of course just use the in built amps for front left / right, then add on an external power amp for subs.
Hope this helps!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Colin,
Any modern AV amp can be used, ie run the main speakers ( BMR) as front right / left and then the "sub out" to a separate power amp and run the bass / low mid drivers from that amp.
My 3 year old RXV765 Yamaha has graphic Eq available on all 5 channels down to 63Hz and up to about 16KHz from memory.
At the moment I am not using the graphic Eq, I am using the built in Parametric Eq in JRiver, USB out into a Meridian Explorer DAC, TOS link optical out into the AV amp and then using the inbuilt DAC's ( Burr Brown) in the AV amp to convert D to A.
It really is surprizing how good AV amps are when just used as processors / Pre amps.... I am using my own power amp on the BMR's and an Audiolab power amp on the Subs.
If you have a good AV amp you can of course just use the in built amps for front left / right, then add on an external power amp for subs.
Hope this helps!
Cheers
Derek.
Most BMR's are Lo Fi...
Hi Greebster,
I agree most commercial BMR's, and all small BMR's really are LoFi and only good for low end use.
The bigger Neo versions show promise, but are still compromised as far as power handling goes.
IMO...Designing for on wall / in wall and combining with Line array or panel speakers which up to 48 drivers(!) per speaker and going fully active with DSP / Eq will allow the full BMR potential to be realised.
My experiments have resulted in a few raised eyebrows, followed by big grins when the penny drops!
Cheers
D.
Hi Greebster,
I agree most commercial BMR's, and all small BMR's really are LoFi and only good for low end use.
The bigger Neo versions show promise, but are still compromised as far as power handling goes.
IMO...Designing for on wall / in wall and combining with Line array or panel speakers which up to 48 drivers(!) per speaker and going fully active with DSP / Eq will allow the full BMR potential to be realised.
My experiments have resulted in a few raised eyebrows, followed by big grins when the penny drops!
Cheers
D.
Dynadio tweeters are not Esotars...
I have just been told that the Dynaudio tweeters I replaced with BMR's are not Esotars...They are just a model number and apparently can be bought by anyone for £150 a pair...
Whatever they are, the BMR is better!
Cheers
D.
I have just been told that the Dynaudio tweeters I replaced with BMR's are not Esotars...They are just a model number and apparently can be bought by anyone for £150 a pair...
Whatever they are, the BMR is better!
Cheers
D.
This looks similar to the one used by the Cambridge Audio Aero 2, but that claims 85dB/W and from the recent HFW test, did not show the 4kHz suck out
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