what would be a reasonable bandwidth and distortion to expect for the AS-100N on K400 type horn?
Carson AS-100N 100 Watt Siren Speaker Driver
Carson AS-100N 100 Watt Siren Speaker Driver
My intention is to toy around with a 3 way all horn loaded speaker on a budget. For me this means affordable off the shelf horns and compresion drivers for 500 Hz and up and a folded midbass 50 Hz> 500. I do understand this is a compromised layout. In an ideal world horns "need" to be round and tractrix, jmlc or iwata or turned on a lathe from wood, i know.
I am just looking for a cheap way to make some fun. And toy around with horns. To learn a bit more about them.
unaHm, apologies for the thread hijack!
I am just looking for a cheap way to make some fun. And toy around with horns. To learn a bit more about them.
unaHm, apologies for the thread hijack!
POOH, I'd love to see what your setup looks like! What is the 6.5" driver that you're using for your midrange, and how long does the horn have to be in order for it to be effective?
I've not yet found much information on the driver chamber on the cone-driven horns. I do understand that the intent to enclose the driver is not necessarily for tuning purposes, but what factors determine its size?
It seems that the desired compression drivers for this application are in that $400 range (depending on the driver, for one, or for a pair). I wish I could afford that...maybe one day!
Has anyone on the forums used the 'cheap' compression drivers that have been mentioned in this thread?
In terms of distortion in compression drivers, how much does it relate to cone drivers? Is it mathematically quite high, but in comparison hardly noticeable, or because of the sensitivity is it worse?
I've not yet found much information on the driver chamber on the cone-driven horns. I do understand that the intent to enclose the driver is not necessarily for tuning purposes, but what factors determine its size?
It seems that the desired compression drivers for this application are in that $400 range (depending on the driver, for one, or for a pair). I wish I could afford that...maybe one day!
Has anyone on the forums used the 'cheap' compression drivers that have been mentioned in this thread?
In terms of distortion in compression drivers, how much does it relate to cone drivers? Is it mathematically quite high, but in comparison hardly noticeable, or because of the sensitivity is it worse?
The mid horn is around 30 inches long, the back chambers are best tuned with a resistor, volt meter and signal generator - start big and add mass inside the chamber to the flare frequency - 10 percent. read Edgar's article on reactance annulling, I go 10 percent lower then he does - http://volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Monolith-Horn.pdf
A good cone like the B&C will have lower IM distortion then a compression driver. It is critical to align the voice coil with the bass and treble drivers. acone normally will have better tone and when aligned properly will have a bit more realism for strings and brass.
"It's about having the loudspeaker experience the same magnitude of "air loading" on each side of the cone at the lowest frequency the horn is expected to operate at (the cutoff, fc). The rear chamber is sized such that the voice coil, when operating at fc, has the same magnitude of excursion distance regardless of the direction its moving (either towards the throat or away). The sealed air chamber behind the cone provides a fixed volume of air and, in conjuction with the suspension and spider, provides the necessary loading. The effect is to raise the output of the horn as the frequency of the signal is lowered to fc.
The system stiffness (rear chamber air volume + driver) is equal to the acoustic resistance (in mechanical Ohms) of the horn throat multiplied by a constant. The constant is 2*Pi*f where f is frequency in Hz. If the rear chamber is sized accordingly, the system stiffness, at fc where fc is now the horn cut-off frequency, is equal in magnitude to the acoustical resistance of the throat multiplied by 2*Pi*fc. Assuming a sinewave input of frequency equal to fc, the voice coil oscillating forward and aft will have similar excursion magnitudes going either towards the throat or toward the rear chamber thus preserving (to a large degree) the input waveform."
A good cone like the B&C will have lower IM distortion then a compression driver. It is critical to align the voice coil with the bass and treble drivers. acone normally will have better tone and when aligned properly will have a bit more realism for strings and brass.
"It's about having the loudspeaker experience the same magnitude of "air loading" on each side of the cone at the lowest frequency the horn is expected to operate at (the cutoff, fc). The rear chamber is sized such that the voice coil, when operating at fc, has the same magnitude of excursion distance regardless of the direction its moving (either towards the throat or away). The sealed air chamber behind the cone provides a fixed volume of air and, in conjuction with the suspension and spider, provides the necessary loading. The effect is to raise the output of the horn as the frequency of the signal is lowered to fc.
The system stiffness (rear chamber air volume + driver) is equal to the acoustic resistance (in mechanical Ohms) of the horn throat multiplied by a constant. The constant is 2*Pi*f where f is frequency in Hz. If the rear chamber is sized accordingly, the system stiffness, at fc where fc is now the horn cut-off frequency, is equal in magnitude to the acoustical resistance of the throat multiplied by 2*Pi*fc. Assuming a sinewave input of frequency equal to fc, the voice coil oscillating forward and aft will have similar excursion magnitudes going either towards the throat or toward the rear chamber thus preserving (to a large degree) the input waveform."
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Not really this is at 5 feet in room no back chamber, factory phase plug, no eq or crossover driven by PP 6BQ5. The back chamber brings the bottom up a bit but it sounds better without one 1/48 th smoothing - sounds very real
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Thanks for the information POOH, that does make a lot of sense!
Phenoholic Anonymous, I wish I'd found that Selenium driver before! Going from this spec sheet:
http://www.selenium.com.br/sitenovo/admin/Documentos/HL50-25_i.pdf
The D250-X would be a GOOD candidate for a midrange application...especially as Selenium use it themselves from 250Hz in this horn. It would crossover well with the T18. Thanks for digging that one up!
Phenoholic Anonymous, I wish I'd found that Selenium driver before! Going from this spec sheet:
http://www.selenium.com.br/sitenovo/admin/Documentos/HL50-25_i.pdf
The D250-X would be a GOOD candidate for a midrange application...especially as Selenium use it themselves from 250Hz in this horn. It would crossover well with the T18. Thanks for digging that one up!
I'ld suggest looking through ebay for used compression drivers. Good large format compression drivers are quite expensive new. I got myself 3 Radian 835pb off of ebay for $300. Not sure what I'm going to do with the 3rd one yet, but the other two sound great attached to 350Hz LeCleach horns.
You're welcome. I have the little Selinium DX250 driver here in the same horn it drops like a rock below 600 Hz, even the much better D405 is only good to 600 and that's in a 150 Hz horn with a 4' by 4' mouth- the DX 250 is terrible for hifi
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Thanks POOH,
I will leave the Selenium D250X alone! unaHm Are you aware about the difference between frequency cut off Fc of a given horn and the usable range? A common used guideline is to use Fc 250 horns 500 Hz and up. For "tweeters" you see an even larger distance from Fc.
Does anybody have experience with this type of cheap phenolic drivers? It's sold as: Monacor KU-516, Penton, Adastra, Voicetec, Seikaku, etc. A good price would be 30$ a piece.
Jmlc tried and liked it 200Hz to 1.200 Hz. In this Klang&Ton kit it is used up to 3Khz. In an earlier edition of the Autotech Universem 3 way horn it was used upto +- 2 kHz.
I will leave the Selenium D250X alone! unaHm Are you aware about the difference between frequency cut off Fc of a given horn and the usable range? A common used guideline is to use Fc 250 horns 500 Hz and up. For "tweeters" you see an even larger distance from Fc.
Does anybody have experience with this type of cheap phenolic drivers? It's sold as: Monacor KU-516, Penton, Adastra, Voicetec, Seikaku, etc. A good price would be 30$ a piece.
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Jmlc tried and liked it 200Hz to 1.200 Hz. In this Klang&Ton kit it is used up to 3Khz. In an earlier edition of the Autotech Universem 3 way horn it was used upto +- 2 kHz.
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I don't know, i am just repeating a positive statement about these Monacor drivers. It's a jungle to find the exact "KU 516" driver with all these resellers, rebranders, versions and modelnumbers. Especially since they leave the Ahuja factory with a 10$ pricetag. Monacor ask's 75$...
Not in our budget range, but you might find the Goto drivers interesting to google, they have a lowerbass compression driver. There's an interesting thread about them on this forum.
Not in our budget range, but you might find the Goto drivers interesting to google, they have a lowerbass compression driver. There's an interesting thread about them on this forum.
My point is use a cone because they wok really well and don't cost anywhere near the compression drivers that will only work to 300 Hz let alone 200 Hz or lower. Sure they spec them there but for linear response look elsewhere -plan on a very long horn and spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on the drivers BUT in the end the CD will likely be no better then a good horn loaded cone. I'm just trying to save you money and time dicking around with stuff a lot of people have already found dead end,
I don't think unaHm and i will go Goto 
but i do understand your point about using compression drivers all the way down. That's the reason i want to use a cheap driver in a big radial horn 500 hz or higher. If it's a dead end, it's no big loss The mass roll off the B&C 6PEV 13 seems no problem in your frontloaded horn. That is good to know.
but i do understand your point about using compression drivers all the way down. That's the reason i want to use a cheap driver in a big radial horn 500 hz or higher. If it's a dead end, it's no big loss The mass roll off the B&C 6PEV 13 seems no problem in your frontloaded horn. That is good to know.
500 Hz is much easier to get to then 200-300 with a CD. Still for the $$ and performance value a cone will be a great choice. I like crossing over lower then that but with the right setup 500 can sound excellent. A good "sleeper" driver that will blow you away sonically and can be bought petty low on ebay used is the EV DH1 with the original aluminum diaphragm. Those work pretty well to 500 or the Klipsch/Atlas/Hepner drivers used in the long Klipsch mid horns - they won't have the detail and pure sound of the EV though.
Thanks for the EV tip, something along the lines of an EV Sentry VI would be the idea to get me started with horns. Maybe with a Vitavox Thunderbolt style bassbin. Of course i will build it so i can easyly swap the midrange or highrange driver So any info on improving the midrange from a folded bas mid horn is still very welcome!
So any info on improving the midrange from a folded bas mid horn is still very welcome!An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Thanks for the EV tip, something along the lines of an EV Sentry VI would be the idea to get me started with horns. Maybe with a Vitavox Thunderbolt style bassbin. Of course i will build it so i can easyly swap the midrange or highrange driver
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The Edgar "show horn" article is a good place to start
http://volvotreter.de/downloads/Edgar-Show-Horn.pdf
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