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JBL M2 for The Poors
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Old 6th December 2013, 06:55 PM   #11
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Maybe a strange question, but:
How many of these projects did you actually finish?
I like your crazy ideas but get the impression the projects all run to a dead end at some point .
Hope you finish that Monster Massive project...
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Old 6th December 2013, 07:16 PM   #12
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Smoking crack would probably be a cheaper habit than audio for me.
Just placed an order for the following:

1) 20 of the 1/2" tweeters from Dayton ($50)
2) One JBL 2408H-1 ($109)
John,

I have known some engineers who have put the equivalent cost of a house up their nose, it does not appear you have gone that far with your audio habit .

You have many times expressed liking the extra "air" that tiny HF drivers have in the top octave, and have shown a simulation showing that the 1/2" tweeters from Dayton are incapable of that attribute when used as horn drivers.
You have also recently mentioned there are no redeeming features of a 2" driver, which is what the exit size of your proposed 1/2" tweeter ring would be.

Why do you enjoy buying things guaranteed to produce dismal results?

Art
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Old 6th December 2013, 07:30 PM   #13
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
Maybe a strange question, but:
How many of these projects did you actually finish?
I like your crazy ideas but get the impression the projects all run to a dead end at some point .
Hope you finish that Monster Massive project...
This is something I feel really strongly about, and it's one of the reason that I'm always promoting Geddes speakers on the forum.

Andy Wehmeyer, formerly of JBL, said it better than I could when he wrote the following:

"In my 25 years of working in this industry, I've listened to thousands of cars and I can count the ones that sounded great on two hands. Most of them have serious problems and some of the worst ones are IASCA winners. In fact, I'm in China doing a 4-day audio training for a bunch of dealers. Many of them have brought their cars, so we're having a tuning session each afternoon. 50% of these guys have plans to change all the equipment in their cars because they don't sound good. In every case so far, none of the equipment has been the cause of poor performance. In every case, it's the installation, the adjustments or the system design. All of these cars have cool fiberglass boxes, amps, components with tweeters mounted in reasonable locations, but they all sound like *** except for one. THe one that sounded great was the simplest system of the bunch but the guy had actually set the crossover points correctly. "

I had that in my sig for a few years, because it perfectly reflects the reason that I've invested thousands of hours on this hobby, but I have exactly ONE of my projects still running. Basically guys like Geddes and Danley and the folks at JBL know better than I do, so for critical listening, I'll simply buy or clone their products. It's a lot of fun to experiment with audio, but the devil is in the details and that's why I have the following in my listening 'rooms':

my car : a seven channel Lexicon system (part of Harman, of course.)
my living room: Vandersteen
bedroom: Gedlee Summas
garage: JBL Control Now

Spending the big bucks for the Summas was kinda painful but I don't regret it one bit, and I think that more hobbyists should have a reference monitor that's designed by a pro.
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Old 6th December 2013, 07:49 PM   #14
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
John,

I have known some engineers who have put the equivalent cost of a house up their nose, it does not appear you have gone that far with your audio habit .
I have this 'pet theory' that the violence in Mexico is partly due to a LACK of profits. IE, the media creates this meme that drug dealers are making money hand over fist, but economists like Steven Levitt have shown that the profits are pretty meager. IMHO the violence isn't due to skyrocketing profits, it's due to existing groups going to war over a shrinking market. In the past few years there have been cases where they've gone into iron ore mining(1) and kidnapping(2). I live close enough to Mexico that I can walk there, and legal alternatives to illegal drugs are available from hundreds of pharmacies. (Amphetamines are a component of the legal drug adderal, there are synthetic opiates in dozes of legal painkillers, etc.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
You have many times expressed liking the extra "air" that tiny HF drivers have in the top octave, and have shown a simulation showing that the 1/2" tweeters from Dayton are incapable of that attribute when used as horn drivers.
You have also recently mentioned there are no redeeming features of a 2" driver, which is what the exit size of your proposed 1/2" tweeter ring would be.

Why do you enjoy buying things guaranteed to produce dismal results?

Art
To learn things, of course.
If I hadn't spent hours poring through the patents of Alex Voshivillo(sp?) I wouldn't have discovered that the JBL 2408H-1 appears to have some real and significant improvement on a design that I already like... And it's cheap.

I know the DE250 is affordable and ubiquitous, but once in a while you find a really great driver that barely anyone has discovered.

Another cool thing about the 2408H-1 is that the waveguide is affordable, widely available, and looks to be fairly decent.

A 2408H, plus a JBL waveguide, plus a 12" or a 15" woofer might offer some of the sound that I like so much in my Summa, but with more 'air' at the top end.

Danley described something similar when he wrote the following about the BMS ring radiators:

ot all compression drivers are created equal or create the same problems.
For example, in subjective listening, on two identical 50 degree conical horns, both made “flat”, both having similar responses and acoustic phase, still sounded very different.
Of two of the best modern compression drivers available, The B&C DE250 sounded very much like a horn compared next to the BMS 4550 which sounded very “open” and airy.

The possibly interesting part was the BMS driver has a different internal approach, which so far as the horn is concerned, starts as an acoustically small conical horn inside the driver. There are no phase plug summation slots, (which by path length, generally would appear to produce a converging, not diverging wave front one would want in a source that was large enough to already exhibiting some directivity at the throat).
As a result, with an acoustically small origin and small acoustic size where the break point in angles was, there was much less “origin” garbage from the BMS style phase plug arrangement which produces a diverging wave front from inside the driver.
(3)

1) : Mexican Drug Cartels Now Make Money Exporting Ore : NPR
2) : Soldiers rescue 165 people brutally kidnapped in Mexico ? adults and children held terrified for weeks at gunpoint - NY Daily News
3) : Beyond the Ariel
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Old 6th December 2013, 08:29 PM   #15
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post

It's a lot of fun to experiment with audio, but
the devil is in the details ...
Not in the details, in logical thinking .
Lots of info out there is placed just to cause confusion.
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Old 6th December 2013, 08:59 PM   #16
dumptruck is offline dumptruck  United States
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Isn't the whole point of the fancy compression driver high SPL at low frequencies? If we're throwing out SPL, I think a poor's M2 would be more like QSC waveguide + some cheap compression driver + serious miniDSP implementation. I mean, really it should involve a waveguide that holds up down to 800Hz or so, but I don't think there is one available for cheap.
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Old 6th December 2013, 10:27 PM   #17
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
A 2408H, plus a JBL waveguide, plus a 12" or a 15" woofer might offer some of the sound that I like so much in my Summa, but with more 'air' at the top end.

Danley described something similar when he wrote the following about the BMS ring radiators:


For example, in subjective listening, on two identical 50 degree conical horns, both made “flat”, both having similar responses and acoustic phase, still sounded very different.
Of two of the best modern compression drivers available, The B&C DE250 sounded very much like a horn compared next to the BMS 4550 which sounded very “open” and airy.

The possibly interesting part was the BMS driver has a different internal approach, which so far as the horn is concerned, starts as an acoustically small conical horn inside the driver. There are no phase plug summation slots, (which by path length, generally would appear to produce a converging, not diverging wave front one would want in a source that was large enough to already exhibiting some directivity at the throat).
As a result, with an acoustically small origin and small acoustic size where the break point in angles was, there was much less “origin” garbage from the BMS style phase plug arrangement which produces a diverging wave front from inside the driver.
(3)

3) : Beyond the Ariel
From Tom's quote it sounds like the rather rough break point in the 50 degree conical horns he compared result in less “origin” garbage from the BMS style phase plug.

The Summa horn is basically conical, the difference is between it and a conical being in the critical throat area, this detail probably makes it relatively immune to the difference in driver design. I doubt you will find the JBL 2408H on a JBL waveguide will have more "air".

My tests using conical horns with a very smooth driver to horn interface don't seem to exhibit any less "airiness" using the BMS style phase plug/annular ring diaphragm compared to annular slot phase plug dome diaphragm drivers.

Take a listen to them and tell me if you hear more "air" in one type over the other:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...valuation.html

The HF drivers alone without LF mixed in can be heard here:
http://soundforums.net/varsity/4329-...valuation.html

Art

Last edited by weltersys; 6th December 2013 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 6th December 2013, 10:48 PM   #18
POOH is offline POOH  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Take a listen to them and tell me if you hear more "air" in one type over the other:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...valuation.html

The HF drivers alone without LF mixed in can be heard here:
High Frequency Compression Driver Evaluation

Art
Thanks for that!

I had some BMS 2" and 1" drivers and they sounded spitty, gritty compared to other drivers like the older EV's in your test. I really like the 1012s. I bought the BMS because I read on the internets people love them! LOL - The B&C 250 sounds like that too that's why I wonder why people actually use them for hifi when there are so much better sounding drivers available? Do they really like them or are they just naive to what's available and better?
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Old 7th December 2013, 04:37 PM   #19
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Originally Posted by POOH View Post
Thanks for that!

I had some BMS 2" and 1" drivers and they sounded spitty, gritty compared to other drivers like the older EV's in your test. I really like the 1012s. I bought the BMS because I read on the internets people love them! LOL - The B&C 250 sounds like that too that's why I wonder why people actually use them for hifi when there are so much better sounding drivers available? Do they really like them or are they just naive to what's available and better?
Pooh,

"Better" is a subjective term.
Most people have not had the opportunity to actually compare different HF drivers under controlled conditions, so their opinions often have little objectivity.

The B&C driver I tested was the flattest of the six, the BMS drivers had the most extended HF.

The EVDH1A was capable of the most output with the least distortion, but all the drivers were capable of clean output at levels most would find more than adequate for home use, with the exception that the 1" exit BMS would require a higher crossover point for clean reproduction than the other drivers were capable of.

The recordings of the drivers allow anyone to decide for themselves what the different drivers sound like, rather than relying on subjective reports, or trying to compare driver "A" on horn "B" specifications to driver "C" on horn "D".

Art
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Old 14th December 2013, 06:54 PM   #20
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

The JBLs showed up quite fast. Surprised how beefy it is; it's significantly larger and heavier than my ol' standby, the Celestion CDX1-1425.

I bought a pile (pyle?) of screw on horns to test. Those Pyles are so cheap they're practically free.

It's occurred to me that this will probably end up looking a lot like an Econowave. If you took the M2, replaced the dual-diaphragm driver with a JBL 2408H-1, and replaced the trick JBL waveguide with a Pyle knockoff, that's not too far from an Econowave.

On the upside, I believe that the JBL for $109 is probably better sounding that the Selenium that's typically used with the Econowave. (I haven't heard the Selenium, but I've heard the B&C DE250, and if the DE250 is better than the Selenium than the JBL is in good company, because the BMS 4540ND sounds better to me than the DE250 as long as you don't run it too low.)
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