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Old 24th November 2013, 06:52 PM   #11
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Hi,

Don't get me wrong. I'm pretty sure the ZD5's are very good
but they are expensive. Bang for buck they are not. If it turns
out they simply don't go loud enough its an expensive way
of finding out you should have built some bigger speakers.

Personally I have some reservations about using a 11L
Vas, 0.55 Qts driver in 14L sealed * and 25L vented ! .
Its not ideal, not by a long way in my book.
! I suspect a TL would be best for the ZD5 bassmid.

YMMV as to the ambition level for a first build. Its
easy to get carried away trying to make the best
thing since sliced bread, whilst IMO its best to try
and make simply a very good speaker first off.

There is so much choice. Some can run before
they can walk. Some cannot. My opinion though
is the floorstanding Amiga would go great with the
Arcam Alpha 8 amplifier for a no sub hifi system,
with the footprint of of a small standmounter.

And probably cost less than the built ZD5 crossovers.

IMO the ZD5 or similar deserves better cabinets. However
the level of ambition for cabinet design is fine for the Amiga's.

rgds, sreten.

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
(see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
The Speaker Building Bible
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
http://audio.claub.net/Simple%20Loud...ign%20ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only
RJB Audio Projects
Jay's DIY Loudspeaker Projects
Speaker Design Works
DIY Loudspeakers
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design

* Old school 3rd order bass loading immediately springs to mind .....
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/do...20Box_copy.pdf
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There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow

Last edited by sreten; 24th November 2013 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 24th November 2013, 07:38 PM   #12
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Join Date: Oct 2012
You might want to define how loud you like to listen to music. With the low sensitivity of the ZD5 (~81dB, 1W/1m), a 50W amp will not be able to push them extremely loud. That may or may not be a good thing depending on your point of view. Sitting about 8ft from the speakers, your max SPL is going to be about 90dB with 50W, so you're going to want to be playing them lower than that to give your amp some headroom.

Just fyi, for every increase of 3dB, you need to double the amp power. That's why higher sensitivity speakers can be such an advantage. So if you had 6dB more sensitive speakers, then the above 90dB Spl levels would be achieved with just 12.5W instead of 50W.

Now 90dB is actually quite loud but many consider having available peaks in the neighborhood of 100dB to be more advantageous. YMMV of course.
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Old 24th November 2013, 07:43 PM   #13
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Stafford
Thanks sreten,

I may get lynched for the next question, but here goes....
How would the Amiga compare to my existing Kef Q35s?
I am concerned that the components for the Amiga are fairly low cost, and I may not get the end result I am hoping for.

Maybe I am wrongly equating price of components with quality, where design - when already done by someone else - costs nothing?

Are there any shows or exhibitions in the UK where DIY speakers can be seen and heard?
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Old 24th November 2013, 07:56 PM   #14
tvrgeek is offline tvrgeek  United States
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Md
I agree a kit is the best first project. One well documented so you can retrace the designers steps. I agree with the above comments that the ZD5 is not a beginners project. The quality of the drivers deserves a lot of careful attention to detail only learned after you have done a few. They are not cheap. ( the XT25 is not my favorite tweeter)

Now, are you looking for a great pair of speakers and think DIY is just a cheap way to get there ( it isn't) or are you as foolish as the rest of us and are considering the long spiral of failures that taking up this hobby offers? What background in electronics have you had? At least college physics? Do you have access to a complete woodshop? Are you willing to spend 6 months on a design just to bust up the box and start over?

If you just want great speakers. Go buy some. It is cheaper and you get to hear them. Subs you can do better than most ( because you can make them big enough), but monitors are hard to beat production for the price.

Now, if you are looking to join the fold, I would suggest starting with a cheaper kit or design that has been written up a lot or has a lot of threads about it so you can learn to retrace the designers process and procedures as you learn about the many different engineering disciplines in speaker design.

PS, The Arcam is a very nice little amp. In a REAL room, especially if it is an apartment, it is suitable for about any speaker that won't get you tossed out. Don't expect the amp to make big differences. 99% of the results are the speaker. Yea, my stack of Parasound 1200's really shines on full orchestra in my big system, but the systems I listen to most have a small Creek, Rotel, and my own amps that are only 35 to 45 W or so. They do fine. Spend your money on speakers.
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Old 24th November 2013, 08:13 PM   #15
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Hi,

Speaker SPL levels are complicated. Nearfield the nearer you are the
louder they are, but farfield the volume is essentially the same, and
for small speakers this will be be at least half the back floor area.

I don't know the exact numbers but 90dB seems very low for
a pair of speakers with 50W. A 81dB/1W/1m speaker will do
76dB/1W//2m but two speakers gets you back to 81dB/2m.

2m senstivity is a fair approximation of the constant farfield.

10W is 91dB, 100W is 101dB and so 50W is 98dB.

Which all agrees with :

Quote:
[b]Paul Cramody[b]
The drawbacks of this design are that the speaker is not very sensitive (about 83
-84 dB, after baffle step loss), and the RS180 only has so much excursion. My
own experience is that the RS180 runs out of xmax somewhere around 96-98 dB, depending on the music, and modeling confirms this.
In other words SPL max at 1m for a single speaker is moreorless
SPL max for a pair of speakers farfield in a compact room. For big
rooms the transition to constant farfield is further away from the
speakers, and for small rooms it is nearer. Consequently the level
of the farfield depends on the room size, not just box numbers.

rgds, sreten.
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There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow
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Old 24th November 2013, 08:22 PM   #16
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Stafford
I was considering this to be a 1 off learning curve.
A project to combine a good grounding in electronics (but not audio) with my enjoyment of woodwork (if you can call MDF wood). I was looking at a lower cost way to get a high quality set of speakers.
Volume is not a great issue. I am not looking for loud.
They will be in a medium sized living room. Used for tv, and most types of music.

The possibility of a full strip down is not a concern, as long as I can re-use the electronics. Another reason why the ZD5s appealed to me with the floor standing and stand mount options. I am told that size is a big design constraint - must not be bigger than existing Q35s (but I may be able to get away with a bit bigger if I don't ever stand them side by side.)

Perhaps Ebay is a cheaper route to high quality, but it is nice to think 'I made that'.

Last edited by IanT1967; 24th November 2013 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 24th November 2013, 09:08 PM   #17
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanT1967 View Post
Thanks sreten,

I may get lynched for the next question, but here goes....
How would the Amiga compare to my existing Kef Q35s?
I am concerned that the components for the Amiga are fairly
low cost, and I may not get the end result I am hoping for.

Maybe I am wrongly equating price of components with quality,
where design - when already done by someone else - costs nothing?

Are there any shows or exhibitions in the UK where DIY speakers can be seen and heard?
Hi,

Its a moot point with anyone who already has allegedly good
commercial hifi speakers. And I'd be the first to admit if you
know your stuff you can buy far better used good commercial
speakers than you could possibly build an equivalent for,
if you factor in your time building them as a real cost.

If your after performance / dollar used good speakers are the
way to go. Building good speakers is very time consuming,
even when you get the hang of it, but its very slow at first.

Many shows really illustrate alternative speaker designs much
more than anything designed to take on the mainstream.

YMMV and its just my opinion that the Amiga is one of the
best relatively budget but real hi-fi no sub designs available
to someone in the UK, too many off them are a rip-off.

Claimed sensitivities of 83-84dB versus 91dB should tell you
that you are dealing with two very different kettles of fish *.

The Amiga has high VFM drivers, near the best VFM available.

It won't compare to the Q35, it will be different.

rgds, sreten.

* Given the Arcam Alpha 8 has pre-out power-in it is worth
experimenting with http://sound.westhost.com/bafflestep.htm
__________________
There is nothing so practical as a really good theory - Ludwig Boltzmann
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail - Abraham Maslow

Last edited by sreten; 24th November 2013 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 24th November 2013, 11:25 PM   #18
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by sreten View Post
I don't know the exact numbers but 90dB seems very low for
a pair of speakers with 50W. A 81dB/1W/1m speaker will do
76dB/1W//2m but two speakers gets you back to 81dB/2m.
My mistake - I forgot to calculate for 2 speakers. Doh.

Also hadn't heard about 2m=farfield SPL's before. That's helpful. Thanks sreten.
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Old 25th November 2013, 12:01 AM   #19
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Given that you have background in both electronics and carpentry, I don't think building the ZD5 is going to be over your head, but if you do get stuck, there is always help available on this and other forums. And since you don't need extremely loud but do want very high quality, it also sounds like the right choice for you, or at least 1 of the right choices.

Btw, Dayton's RS line of drivers are something special, especially when you consider value, but they are not quite up to ScanSpeak Revelator levels. Those are rightfully considered some of the best drivers out there although the Satori's may be even better (the Revelator and the Satori drivers happen to have been designed by the same man btw). But all drivers have their limitations and need to be implemented to their maximum benefit. Good designers (Jeff B, Zaph and Paul C among them) know how to do that and you can trust their designs (and others as well - those 3 have just been mentioned so far).

And I think you are correct - there is tremendous satisfaction in having built them yourself. My voice seems to be the dissenting one but I still say go for it.
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Old 25th November 2013, 08:05 AM   #20
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Charleroi, Belgium (Western Europe)
Hello,

I am building a similar design (same drivers) but from Troels Gravesen, called Ellam XT.

Ellam-XT

Maybe you could check these. Crossover is simpler. Use cheaper component for the filter, Troels usually use usually very expensive components.

As a first project, I would recommand something cheaper.

For instance in french forums (HCFR) you have a few hitmaker which maybe are not discussed here :

DA990 (Peerless SDS134+Vifa DX25) :

Click the image to open in full size.

Enceinte 2 voies haute-fidélité | alexaudio

I have made one of these. Cost +/-130€ (110£)

There is also a floor standing version of these (crossover is different):

Gavroche :

Click the image to open in full size.

Gavroche DX - Just DIY It !

Another project which have much success is Prima (Scanspeak 18w4434+D2608 91300) cost +/- 280€ (230£):

Click the image to open in full size.

Prima - Just DIY It !

You can adress your questions to the designers of these, they speak English. Troels Gravesen also answer Emails.

For DA990 and Prima, there is a French site which folow the kits and they can also do it for you :
speaker-kits wil audio - WilAudio

I also do my shopping there or at Europe-audio (NL).
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