Hello, everyone.
My name is Nishit and I'm from India. I am primarily a music lover. I mostly listen to pop/rock music. Not too much of jazz. Although I LOVE classical music, I don't have nearly as much experience there. On top of that I have very little experience with live music. I have never been to a mainstream artists concert. The only ones I've been to, are, some local indie bands in an amateur college fest and a acoustic girl-with guitar in an intimate pub setting.
Having said that, I do have a fairly discrete sense of listening. I have mild OCD and that may contribute to it. I tend to listen to the production in music I am hearing for the first time. My friend, who is an audio engineer remarks often that I "really" listen with my ears. It' subjective ofcourse. I usually download vinyl rips since they have less dynamic compression. One last thing that may be OT, is that I had an experience with cannabis a couple of years back. That experience really changed the way I listen to music. In that I tend to listen to the musical aspects of harmony, melody and rhythm now.
After that long introduction, a bit about my ambitions towards better sound. I'll try and keep it short.
My only reference point for decent sound is my Alessandro MS1 headphones(modified Grado RS80/125). My speakers are really cheap HT type 2.1s. They have mdf cabinets for the sat and subs. And are pretty good for nearfield, low volume listening. I am looking for speakers with a wider sweet spot. Preferably where two people can listen without having their heads in a vice. Now, I have a chance of building my first pair of decent speakers. The idea is to get the drivers and electronics from the USA. Since the choices here are limited. I am on a budget though.
I have been reading up on constant and uniform directivity designs. However, in the bass region I find dipole/OB to be more convient in terms of exciting lesser room nodes. Compared to Waveguide+multi-sub.
This brings me to the design I have in mind. Gainphile: S20-Z Compact Open Baffle using Zaph Kit
Ok, here's the thing. I have two ways of getting the drivers from the USA. 1.Relatives who will be coming back to India on 26th november. 2.Myself, if I get the visa. Visa interview is on the 15th of november. I might be able to stretch my budget from around 600 usd to maybe 700-800 in this case. Also, carrying slightly larger items will be easier.
In option 1. The 10" woofers might be a hindrance, size and weight-wise. So, I might ask them to get two and get the remaining two woofers(same ones) from here. They cost a little more here.
I will not build the final speakers till august of next year, when I will shift to a new place. I might build temporary baffles to see how they work(reverberant sound) in my present room.
In my new place, if the room is bigger than 4 X 4(m) I will build them as S20Zs. If not, I will build the ZA5.2s as bookshelves and build subs out of the dayton 10"s. Get some diffusers. Tame the mids & highs.
The thing is, I have invested so much time into researching gainphile's design that it would be a shame to go another way. It's beginning to grate as well, all this dithering, obsessive researching. Plus, the limited time factor.
In the meanwhile, I am going to listen to a friend's fostex lab clones. They have horn loaded mids and super-tweeters. To see if I like the constant directivity sound. I have listened before and loved the dynamics. Will help me decide if I am to go down the SEOS kit path.
I have some spare 3.5 inch mid drivers. Though no baffles. I wonder if running them baffle-less will give me an idea of how OBs fare in a small room.
2. If I get the drivers myself. I can listen to some OB implementations in person in the USA. Maybe even some waveguided CD types. It will make it easier to decide.
I have been communicating with gainphile, but I am strapped for time. So, I want as many opinions in as little time as possible.
All in all, what do you guys think?
My name is Nishit and I'm from India. I am primarily a music lover. I mostly listen to pop/rock music. Not too much of jazz. Although I LOVE classical music, I don't have nearly as much experience there. On top of that I have very little experience with live music. I have never been to a mainstream artists concert. The only ones I've been to, are, some local indie bands in an amateur college fest and a acoustic girl-with guitar in an intimate pub setting.
Having said that, I do have a fairly discrete sense of listening. I have mild OCD and that may contribute to it. I tend to listen to the production in music I am hearing for the first time. My friend, who is an audio engineer remarks often that I "really" listen with my ears. It' subjective ofcourse. I usually download vinyl rips since they have less dynamic compression. One last thing that may be OT, is that I had an experience with cannabis a couple of years back. That experience really changed the way I listen to music. In that I tend to listen to the musical aspects of harmony, melody and rhythm now.
After that long introduction, a bit about my ambitions towards better sound. I'll try and keep it short.
My only reference point for decent sound is my Alessandro MS1 headphones(modified Grado RS80/125). My speakers are really cheap HT type 2.1s. They have mdf cabinets for the sat and subs. And are pretty good for nearfield, low volume listening. I am looking for speakers with a wider sweet spot. Preferably where two people can listen without having their heads in a vice. Now, I have a chance of building my first pair of decent speakers. The idea is to get the drivers and electronics from the USA. Since the choices here are limited. I am on a budget though.
I have been reading up on constant and uniform directivity designs. However, in the bass region I find dipole/OB to be more convient in terms of exciting lesser room nodes. Compared to Waveguide+multi-sub.
This brings me to the design I have in mind. Gainphile: S20-Z Compact Open Baffle using Zaph Kit
Ok, here's the thing. I have two ways of getting the drivers from the USA. 1.Relatives who will be coming back to India on 26th november. 2.Myself, if I get the visa. Visa interview is on the 15th of november. I might be able to stretch my budget from around 600 usd to maybe 700-800 in this case. Also, carrying slightly larger items will be easier.
In option 1. The 10" woofers might be a hindrance, size and weight-wise. So, I might ask them to get two and get the remaining two woofers(same ones) from here. They cost a little more here.
I will not build the final speakers till august of next year, when I will shift to a new place. I might build temporary baffles to see how they work(reverberant sound) in my present room.
In my new place, if the room is bigger than 4 X 4(m) I will build them as S20Zs. If not, I will build the ZA5.2s as bookshelves and build subs out of the dayton 10"s. Get some diffusers. Tame the mids & highs.
The thing is, I have invested so much time into researching gainphile's design that it would be a shame to go another way. It's beginning to grate as well, all this dithering, obsessive researching. Plus, the limited time factor.
In the meanwhile, I am going to listen to a friend's fostex lab clones. They have horn loaded mids and super-tweeters. To see if I like the constant directivity sound. I have listened before and loved the dynamics. Will help me decide if I am to go down the SEOS kit path.
I have some spare 3.5 inch mid drivers. Though no baffles. I wonder if running them baffle-less will give me an idea of how OBs fare in a small room.
2. If I get the drivers myself. I can listen to some OB implementations in person in the USA. Maybe even some waveguided CD types. It will make it easier to decide.
I have been communicating with gainphile, but I am strapped for time. So, I want as many opinions in as little time as possible.
All in all, what do you guys think?
Nearby ....
.... Source
P-Audio, India
Sonotone Electronics
Mr. Karan Nagpal
Email: info@sonotone.in
Website: Welcome to Sonotone | Innovative Sonic Technology
Record the live music you are listening to for playback in your new system; then teak the system according to what you hear.
N.B., you must get musician permission to do this. You might want to invite them to your home to audit your system as well.
Regards,
WHG
P.S., Not complex at all.
.... Source
P-Audio, India
Sonotone Electronics
Mr. Karan Nagpal
Email: info@sonotone.in
Website: Welcome to Sonotone | Innovative Sonic Technology
Record the live music you are listening to for playback in your new system; then teak the system according to what you hear.
N.B., you must get musician permission to do this. You might want to invite them to your home to audit your system as well.
Regards,
WHG
P.S., Not complex at all.
Thanks for your thoughts whgeiger. That is such a simple and to the point approach towards selecting loudspeakers. The trouble is, most decent to high end here, is marked up to nearly twice the american/european price, because of custom duties,taxes,etc. And therefore it's either not worth it or well out of my budget. There are a few Indian brands, that have honest price-to-performance ratios, but they mostly cater to a niche audience that doesn't mind spending a bit more than I can afford. If I visit the USA, I'll try and audition as many speakers as I can. I don't have a mic to record on me but my friend has a zoom h4n portable recorder, which could come in handy. In any case, I'll keep this in mind for the future.
Cheers.
Cheers.
What concerns me is that you do not have experience in designing speakers and little things like getting parts shipped back is a problem. Open baffel designs are very difficult to design. Swapping sizes or drivers means a totally different design. To do an OB, you need test equipment. They are complex enough you should only do one with active crossovers. ( Read Linkwitz for an example) It sounds like you should build an existing established design or kit EXACTLLY. There are very few OB speakers sold retail. They will be very expensive. OB are way to sensitive to the rooms for retail. Exceptions are planer things like Magigies or electrostatics like Martin Logan. I think the last OB speaker I saw in a store was an Apogee ribbon. Stores sell boxes. 99.99% of the people expect boxes. The price you are talking gets you a low end Worfdale or Paradound. Probably not what you will consider hi-fi.
If you make it over here, listen to the Vanderstein 2Ce. It is outside your size and budget, but you should hear an example of "do-no-wrong" speakers. Many speakers cost several times more and do not sound anywhere as decent.
My wife too has very sensitive hearing. My main speakers are a modification to the Zaph SR71. I used the aluminum dome tweeter from the same SEAS line, and round-over all 12 edges of the cabinet. This does matter. The last detail was a felt ring around the tweeter. These are plenty for a small room and do an honest 60 Hz.
BTW, there is nothing wrong with the performance of MDF sonically if used correctly. It remains my preferred material.
I would think shipping from Europe would be cheaper than from the States.
If you make it over here, listen to the Vanderstein 2Ce. It is outside your size and budget, but you should hear an example of "do-no-wrong" speakers. Many speakers cost several times more and do not sound anywhere as decent.
My wife too has very sensitive hearing. My main speakers are a modification to the Zaph SR71. I used the aluminum dome tweeter from the same SEAS line, and round-over all 12 edges of the cabinet. This does matter. The last detail was a felt ring around the tweeter. These are plenty for a small room and do an honest 60 Hz.
BTW, there is nothing wrong with the performance of MDF sonically if used correctly. It remains my preferred material.
I would think shipping from Europe would be cheaper than from the States.
gainphile's small ob is not a very good speaker in general terms. And you would need minidsp and two amplifiers per speaker too. If your apartment has concrete or tile walls, I would not recommend dipoles at all.
Dipoles do really sound different that boxed speakers, but not necessarily as much different or better as you think. Good 2- or 3- way diy box speakers are more universal and not so critical for driver choices, crossover and equalizing.
Dipoles do really sound different that boxed speakers, but not necessarily as much different or better as you think. Good 2- or 3- way diy box speakers are more universal and not so critical for driver choices, crossover and equalizing.
You guys. Thanks so much for pitching in. It makes me feel more confident about my decision. I had already decided to drop the OB idea. And go with constant directivity waveguides. Either the diysoundgroup SEOS kits or gainphiles econowave. One of the things that convinced me was a post by arnie krueger on OBs. And how none of the people who were part of a panel that double-blind listened to linkwitz orions and some constant directivity designs, didn't find the OBs to be particularly "special" or anything. I tend to believe this, since through similar tests, it has been found that people cannot discern between amplifiers and dacs. As long as they are well designed modern implementations.
The next thing is to read up on the simplest & most cost-effective way of implementing multi-subs. In my understanding though, that would only take care of the sub-100 hz region w.r.t room modes. So, will I have to combine multi-subs with bass traps, to tame the 100-300 hz region? If so, which would be better to start with? In terms of effectivesness. I am thinking, I'll just get the Diysoundgroup Fusion-8 kit, a topping amp, a 8-10 inch sub driver and a plate amp. Along with a usb dayton measurement mic. Move to my new place, and measure the room. And treat it accordingly.
The next thing is to read up on the simplest & most cost-effective way of implementing multi-subs. In my understanding though, that would only take care of the sub-100 hz region w.r.t room modes. So, will I have to combine multi-subs with bass traps, to tame the 100-300 hz region? If so, which would be better to start with? In terms of effectivesness. I am thinking, I'll just get the Diysoundgroup Fusion-8 kit, a topping amp, a 8-10 inch sub driver and a plate amp. Along with a usb dayton measurement mic. Move to my new place, and measure the room. And treat it accordingly.
There is more at home ...
.... than you supose:
Speaker Driver - Speaker Driver Manufacturers,Speaker Driver Suppliers & Exporters
Regards,
WHG
.... than you supose:
Speaker Driver - Speaker Driver Manufacturers,Speaker Driver Suppliers & Exporters
Regards,
WHG
How about this (not the ZA5, but decent Vifa drivers):
Corrson - India's only DIY Store for Hi-End Audio
Thanks Dissi. Again, not what I'm looking for. Constant directivity with minimal room treatment. At the moment, I'm trying to decide between multi-subs ala geddes and bass traps. I am trying not to go over 600-700 usd. Haven't finalled the budget yet. Couple of days down the line, after the visa interview, I should have a definite figure.
Notes
You cant' say I did not try to get you to shop local.
You will have more flexibility in design as well as in tweaking afterword if you use an active crossover and stay in the digital domain (DSP). This is a much easier and better way to voice each driver to produce an optimum loudspeaker system for whatever particular venue and price point you have in mind.
For subs I prefer servo-controlled units. Mine are vintage Velodyne. Rythmik units would be a lower cost DIY alternative.
Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products
Have you heard any performances of this group?
Album: Tala Matrix, Group: Tabla Beat Science
Amazon.com: Tabla Beat Science: Songs, Albums, Pictures, Bios
They will make your subs move a lot of air!
For a crossover you might want to look at MiniDSP
Welcome to the world of miniDSP | MiniDSP
Regards,
WHG
You cant' say I did not try to get you to shop local.
You will have more flexibility in design as well as in tweaking afterword if you use an active crossover and stay in the digital domain (DSP). This is a much easier and better way to voice each driver to produce an optimum loudspeaker system for whatever particular venue and price point you have in mind.
For subs I prefer servo-controlled units. Mine are vintage Velodyne. Rythmik units would be a lower cost DIY alternative.
Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products
Have you heard any performances of this group?
Album: Tala Matrix, Group: Tabla Beat Science
Amazon.com: Tabla Beat Science: Songs, Albums, Pictures, Bios
They will make your subs move a lot of air!
For a crossover you might want to look at MiniDSP
Welcome to the world of miniDSP | MiniDSP
Regards,
WHG
Definitely won't be saying that. I'll look up active minidsp implementations of the SEOS kit. The gainphile econowave might not fit into my budget. I'll post updates. Servo subs interest me, but they'll have to wait.
Tabla beat science! No! But I have heard of them. Will give them a listen. However, I just had my ears cleaned by an ENT recently. So, no loud music for a couple of days.
Thanks and regards,
Nishit.
Tabla beat science! No! But I have heard of them. Will give them a listen. However, I just had my ears cleaned by an ENT recently. So, no loud music for a couple of days.
Thanks and regards,
Nishit.
Hi , a suggestion you could consider purchasing 2nd hand / used / damaged / hi - end drivers from ebay , swap meet and have them restored --- will be cheaper and customs etc will be nil on your end .
steps
1. depending on your location i can put you through to some good speaker repairers and re-coners
2. prior purchasing have a word with the service person if he will be able to repair / restore them
--- two types of restoring done in india , one with original parts , one with good parts but not the same as used by the original driver .
3. find out the costs prior purchasing with original parts / suggested replacement parts
4. for original parts the parts will be imported by the restorer you will have to give him time , since these are loose parts meant for servicing it will attract far lower customs
5. once completed you will have the drivers you would like , at a suitable price.
other suggestions
consider going in for semi pro drivers as you will find service personnel with original parts for these easily , specially compression driver - you could purchase the replacement diaphragm off the net and have it fitted.
an OB using coax , eminence like howthorne audio is a good start point for using semi pro drivers
p-audio should be a last consideration , the p-audios coming into india are the ones which are normally rejected in the west .
since i am in this industry would like to request you to give time to the restorers , specially if you choose to have the original replacement parts imported by the restorer as it all takes time . (pls remember to consult the restorer prior purchasing any part regarding costs and time)
Suranjan
steps
1. depending on your location i can put you through to some good speaker repairers and re-coners
2. prior purchasing have a word with the service person if he will be able to repair / restore them
--- two types of restoring done in india , one with original parts , one with good parts but not the same as used by the original driver .
3. find out the costs prior purchasing with original parts / suggested replacement parts
4. for original parts the parts will be imported by the restorer you will have to give him time , since these are loose parts meant for servicing it will attract far lower customs
5. once completed you will have the drivers you would like , at a suitable price.
other suggestions
consider going in for semi pro drivers as you will find service personnel with original parts for these easily , specially compression driver - you could purchase the replacement diaphragm off the net and have it fitted.
an OB using coax , eminence like howthorne audio is a good start point for using semi pro drivers
p-audio should be a last consideration , the p-audios coming into india are the ones which are normally rejected in the west .
since i am in this industry would like to request you to give time to the restorers , specially if you choose to have the original replacement parts imported by the restorer as it all takes time . (pls remember to consult the restorer prior purchasing any part regarding costs and time)
Suranjan
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