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-   -   3 Way Line Array, Lots of questions... (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/245303-3-way-line-array-lots-questions.html)

A RandomGuy 4th November 2013 11:47 PM

3 Way Line Array, Lots of questions...
 
Hi guys I'm new here but I have browsed around here for quite a long time.

Just so you guys know.... I have never built a speaker in my entire life. And the only "reference" speaker I have atm is a Energy RC70. The reason I picked this place is because it seems there isn't any snake oil BS and everything is based on facts and good design. I know some basics but lack the immense amount of knowledge on here.

I have picked a few drivers and I am planning on using it for my 150" theater screen. It will be a absolute maximum of 93" tall.
I'm planning on using a active crossover with an SP2060. I am avoiding the DEQX due to price and sticking with the SP2060 since it is supposed to sound better then the DCX2496 according to other forum members in another forum.

I'm thinking of using Emotiva XPA-1 due to their measured performance and low distortion.

I'm also upgrading my PT-7030 to an Emotiva XMC-1 Next year for it's fully balanced circultry and dirac next year. Yes it's XLR is fully balanced.

My goal is to create a extremely accurate Line Array for seating 13+ feet away. If I can succeed creating a accurate(without a raal) dynamic line array with practically no SQ loss I would be extremely happy.

My room currently is shown in the below video link:
Sherbourn PT 7030 - Around the Theater with the new Pre/Pro - YouTube

================================================== =====
Midrange:

Bohlender Graebener Neo8 Planar Transducer

11 Per side - 86-5/8" Tall

The reason I'm picking this driver is simply because it has some of the most detailed midranges. I'm planning on using it between 650 - 2.8-2.9khz and shouldn't run into any problematic horizontal dispersion I think
================================================== =====
Tweeter:

Fountek NeoX 3.0 Ribbon Tweeter with Silver Faceplate

15 Per side - 85.05" Tall

I cannot afford Raal at nearly 5-6 times the cost.... and simply because it has similar performance to the raal at the upper registers according to people I randomly read on various forums. Raal being a great performer and able to crossover low seem to be making the difference. But please correct me if I'm wrong. Since ribbon are supposed to be the most detailed and due to space and looks. I thought this was probably the best choice

Other tweeters I have considered....
Hiquphon OW2 tweeter - I did not consider this one because of spacing between the drivers
Raal 150-15D - I cannot afford :(

================================================== =====

Woofers:

Seas E0021-08S W12CY001
I just recently did some research on this one yesterday... and supposedly have very good bass precision and low distortion. And the driver looks cool :) around 200$ mark

Scanspeak - 18WU/4747T00
I know people like these ones a lot but the price is a bit high.
It seem that it is a fact that these have a nice "warm" sound that many people like. I may consider these once I have listened to them.

Seas Excel W18EX001 (E0017-08S) 7" Magnseium Cone Woofer
Larger driver/ Better base Extension compared to the other SEAS driver.
Not sure about distortion. but I'm assuming it is another accurate SEAS driver.
Looking at the FR it looks like it's something that can be used.

================================================== =====

Cabling: ETP Copper from BJC
Err... it's good quality cable


I think in "theory" it should work.
Things I do not know is...

Cabinet thickness? Need a lot of reinforcing?

Speakers spacing, is having them right beside each other stop lobbing as I have heard with line arrays?

Would it be a problem with this array?

Would using the Small SEAS Driver work?

Would the Larger SEAS driver be better?

Is the BG neo the best choice for this?

Are the crossover points around were they should be?

Would a 4th order crossover be best?

Would I have to get DC protection for the Fountek Ribbons in an active crossover?

I'm planning to using a steeper slope crossover, Is it a good choice?

What books would you suggest that would get me up to date on design?

What software do you use?

What equipment should I use to test?

Is TrueRTA good?

What MICs are recommended?

Is there really a difference between MICs?

Setups and tips?

I'm planning to have this setup sealed, is that a good idea?

I think parallel series is only choice right?

Would time alignment be a big problem with this array?

If so, what would I need to do and would it be worth it?

Tweeters on the inside or outside or is it mostly aesthetics?

Maybe Rick Craig can have some input on this if he's around =P?

I realize my room is flawed and there is nothing I can do about that stupid fireplace... Would this setup work?

Would there be horizontal problems?

Is there other amps you may recommend are very low distortion and accurate?

Would yamaha pro amps be recommended?

I'm always open to any suggestions as I am a noob here... :scratch1:
I look forward to your responses. :)

-Steve

planet10 5th November 2013 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A RandomGuy (Post 3691571)
Neo8 Planar -- 11 Per side - 86-5/8" Tall
NeoX 3.0 Ribbon Tweeter -- 15 Per side - 85.05" Tall
Seas E0021-08S W12CY001
Scanspeak - 18WU/4747T00

An aweful lot of money to spend on a 1st speaker project. The woofer array should be floor to ceiling as well. You should choose quanties of drivers that series/parallel into a reasonable end result (ie 11/side is a no-go).

Quote:

Cabinet thickness? Need a lot of reinforcing?
Depends on how elegant the box design is. Not much needed for the mid-top. The bass arrary is likely going to be best as a well-braced box, 18mm quality ply will likely be sufficient.

Quote:

Speakers spacing, is having them right beside each other stop lobbing as I have heard with line arrays?
As close as possible

Quote:

What MICs are recommended?
It should at least be calibrated.

Quote:

Is there really a difference between MICs?
Huge. The usual cheap candidates are not much good above 10k.

Quote:

Would time alignment be a big problem with this array?
Yes. Since it is a line array next to impossible.

dave

A RandomGuy 5th November 2013 12:57 AM

Quote:

Huge. The usual cheap candidates are not much good above 10k.
Are there ones that had a good track record for performing well?

Quote:

Yes. Since it is a line array next to impossible.
Would multiple drivers (like Bass drivers) flatten out frequency response? Or it wouldn't work the same way? I did notice that some measurements on other arrays showed peaks and valleys of +/- 3-6 dB

Quote:

An aweful lot of money to spend on a 1st speaker project. The woofer array should be floor to ceiling as well. You should choose quanties of drivers that series/parallel into a reasonable end result (ie 11/side is a no-go).
I am planning to make it a woofer array as well. But I haven't decided on the driver since there is not much information comparing the drivers.
I picked those drivers because of it's known performance. But would probably buy one to try out.

But hey! It's still cheaper then the B&W or Wilsons... and I'm hoping it would perform a lot better. But in theory these drivers should blow them away.:scratch1:

A RandomGuy 5th November 2013 01:33 AM

Maximum Speaker Height of 93"

Driver total heights assuming they are going to be right beside each other touching.

BG Neo 8
10 = 78-3/4"

Fountek NeoX 3.0
14 = 79.38"

Seas Excel W18EX001 (E0017-08S) 7" Magnseium Cone Woofer
12 = 83.14956

Does that look right to you? Should make it better for wiring with parallel series.
Umm... Does having one of the drivers slightly longer effect sound in a negative way?

Is the smaller SEAS Driver better in this application?
What should I used to calculate box size for speakers used?

planet10 5th November 2013 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A RandomGuy (Post 3691655)
10 BG Neo 8

4 ohms nominal, could be wired for 10 ohms (OK)

~$2k

Quote:

14 Fountek NeoX 3.0
8 ohms nominal, could be wired for just over 2 ohms (not OK) or 28 ohm (also not OK)

~$4.5k

You'd be better off with 12.

Quote:

12 Seas Excel W18EX001
8 ohms nominal, could be wired for 11 ohms (OK) or 6 ohm (OK)

~$5.8k

Quote:

Does having one of the drivers slightly longer effect sound in a negative way?
decreases the maximum XO point

There are a lot of other ways i'd spend $12k on my hifi/HT

dave

A RandomGuy 5th November 2013 02:43 AM

Quote:

There are a lot of other ways i'd spend $12k on my hifi/HT
What would you do?

I picked these drivers because of their good reputation here and being able to produce very accurately.

Do you know something that will perform better and cheaper :D?

I know the Emotiva XPA-1 can handle 2 ohms according to the engineer(Loonie) to a very high wattage. Since I'm most likely not going to be coming anywhere close to maxing it out I think running 120v should be fine.

I do not have space for more speakers for a full 7 ch. And I listen to music a lot.
I'm trying to get as much performance as I can get from a 2.1 ch setup. All I need is a bit of treatments and some moving of furniture.

btw, your not so far from me :D I'm just an hour from Vancouver.

Would still like to know a bit about Fountek ribbons and still some unanswered questions >.<"

Jim Griffin 5th November 2013 02:53 AM

Your project is certainly ambitious. If you haven't studied my Near Field Line Array White Paper, then you should. It is located at:

http://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf

Fred Thompson has recently constructed a three way open back line array with a DEQX DSP controller. This is at:

The DR912ad Open Baffle Line Array Speakers

An excellent resource is to contact Rick Craig at:

Selah Audio

Rick has been using Don Keele's CBT technology in most of his recent efforts.

Don't buy anything until your plan is solidified and you have thought through everything. Best of luck.

Jim

Generic George 5th November 2013 02:56 AM

It's basically a bad idea to get ambitious as your first project. If you really want a high end line array, just contact Rick Craig directly and ask him to design one for you. He charges quite reasonable fees for doing so and has LOT more experience with line arrays than you will ever likely have.

If you want to experiment and learn, I'd highly recommend a digital crossover, possibly something like a pro amp wt DSP built in like a Behringer iNuke.

Also one of the beauties of a line array is that you can get excellent results from very cheap drivers, since none of them will have to work very hard. So PartsExpress always seems to have various drivers for a couple of bucks and you can pick up 20-30 of them for a nominal sum.

There's a lot of little things that go into speaker building that the only way to really learn is to go out there and do it.

Finally, invest in some good measuring tools like a calibrated usb microphone, without something like that you are flying blind.

planet10 5th November 2013 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A RandomGuy (Post 3691710)
What would you do?

1st off i wouldn't be doing a line arrary. And i'd be spending more money on quality electonics.

If you are set on a LA & ribbons, you should contact Bob at Creative Sound in Abbotsford.

You should note that with a typical SS amp every time you halve the impedance, you double the distortion.

dave

planet10 5th November 2013 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Generic George (Post 3691721)
It's basically a bad idea to get ambitious as your first project.

+ 1

dave


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