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Old 20th December 2003, 03:23 AM   #11
sam9 is offline sam9  United States
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Perhaps the sealed box decision is key. It became clear back in the hey-day of accoustic suspension (predecessors to the sealed box such as AR, Advent and KLH) the the only way to get the best out such loudspeakers was watts, wattts and more watts. Just as biologigical organisms in nature co-evolve, perhaps wthout AR and it's ilk, there never would have been Phase Linear and it's sucessors. In any case, I think that if one of the parameters is a seal box, there isn't going to be any way juggle other parameters so as to avoid the need for substantial amplification.
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Old 20th December 2003, 03:36 AM   #12
amo is offline amo  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by sam9
Perhaps the sealed box decision is key. It became clear back in the hey-day of accoustic suspension (predecessors to the sealed box such as AR, Advent and KLH) the the only way to get the best out such loudspeakers was watts, wattts and more watts. Just as biologigical organisms in nature co-evolve, perhaps wthout AR and it's ilk, there never would have been Phase Linear and it's sucessors. In any case, I think that if one of the parameters is a seal box, there isn't going to be any way juggle other parameters so as to avoid the need for substantial amplification.
I think you are right. Based on my simulations, which are based on Linkwitz's examples, and a little on WINisd, it appears that the woofers will need right around 200 watts each, and the subs, perhaps half of that. Thats a total of 600 watts of power for sub and mid bass, and of course another 1.5 kilowatt for the room . The four channels of 30 watts seem like a drop in the bucket compared to that. So I will have to live with class AB for bass untill I can construct some type of heat management system....
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Old 20th December 2003, 04:15 AM   #13
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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I'm very interested in what 94 dB tweeters and dome mids you are using. Many people seem to prefer cone mids, except for the ATC mid domes which are quite pricey. But units that efficient are rare I thought.

It's true- a large mid cone is flexing and bending all over the place, so I think the center part of it can easily accelerate faster than the figures that use the entire mass of the cone would indicate. Sound scary but it works out fine if the drivers are made for this (in fact some sound spectacular!)

15" PA type sound reinforement speakers in huge sealed boxes seemed to model OK r.e. efficiency for me... what are you considering? A lot of peopple try for really low bass which pushes up the power requirement. If you stay above 40 hz things work out better. And still sound Great! You can always add a sub with
a more efficient amp than the alephs- bass apparently isn't their strong point sound wise anyway.



Mark
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Old 20th December 2003, 04:30 AM   #14
amo is offline amo  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Variac
I'm very interested in what 94 dB tweeters and dome mids you are using. Many people seem to prefer cone mids, except for the ATC mid domes which are quite pricey. But units that efficient are rare I thought.

15" PA type sound reinforement speakers in huge sealed boxes seemed to model OK r.e. efficiency for me... what are you considering? A lot of peopple try for really low bass which pushes up the power requirement. If you stay above 40 hz things work out better.
Mark
SS Ring Radiators for tweets;
ATC "S" mid domes;
TAD 1601c in 75 liters sealed.

I did not want to use such expensive drivers, but for one reason or another, I came back to these 3 again and agian. I really like the fact that the tweeter and mid will not need a complex enclosure, which will alow me to concentrate on the baffle and the looks instead of trying to create a small cavity for a cone. These two are so close in sensitivity, and thus in power requirements, that I just can not resist. The project will take somewhat longer due to high cost, but what the hell, I already waited for so long. As far as the woofer (for which the price has so unseremoniously just gone up to $1,100), the only possibly better alternative that I can see, is the 1602, but I HATE the idea of paying so much for a foam sorround. So there it is, over 2k USD per side
Audiophilia is worse then cocaine addiction


I have also been pricing wood, which is apperantly going to be expensive as hell. I would like to do what the TAD guys have done for the Model 1, complete with "one piece" internal crossbracing, and extra thick baffle and sides. It is a good thing I am not married, so I HAVE to get this project in before I am
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Old 20th December 2003, 04:35 AM   #15
amo is offline amo  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Variac

It's true- a large mid cone is flexing and bending all over the place, so I think the center part of it can easily accelerate faster than the figures that use the entire mass of the cone would indicate. Sound scary but it works out fine if the drivers are made for this (in fact some sound spectacular!)

Mark
Yes, scarry indeed.
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Old 20th December 2003, 05:05 AM   #16
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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I agree- it is better to use very good drivers- it helps amortize the millions of hours you will spend on this. Why waste the time on less than the best?

Here is a guy that has some good insights I think , and has built speakers with the same or similar drivers as you are considering.

http://www.kingston.neostrada.pl/speakerbuilding.html

I had no idea the SS tweet is so efficient. Are they rated at
1 watt/1 meter or at 2.83 volts or some such?
there is a difference!! check to be sure the tweet and mid are using the same standard.

Try a bigger box with a Q of around .6

The pre marriage accumalation concept shows that you are a very clever fellow. Get a junker motorcycle too, and keep it in your garage so its established that you have rights to one.
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Old 20th December 2003, 09:58 AM   #17
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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The SS ring has a 3 ohm winding.

/Peter
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Old 20th December 2003, 11:35 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by amo


SS Ring Radiators for tweets;
ATC "S" mid domes;
TAD 1601c in 75 liters sealed.

I did not want to use such expensive drivers, but for one reason or another, I came back to these 3 again and agian. I really like the fact that the tweeter and mid will not need a complex enclosure, which will alow me to concentrate on the baffle and the looks instead of trying to create a small cavity for a cone. These two are so close in sensitivity, and thus in power requirements, that I just can not resist. The project will take somewhat longer due to high cost, but what the hell, I already waited for so long. As far as the woofer (for which the price has so unseremoniously just gone up to $1,100), the only possibly better alternative that I can see, is the 1602, but I HATE the idea of paying so much for a foam sorround. So there it is, over 2k USD per side
Audiophilia is worse then cocaine addiction


I have also been pricing wood, which is apperantly going to be expensive as hell. I would like to do what the TAD guys have done for the Model 1, complete with "one piece" internal crossbracing, and extra thick baffle and sides. It is a good thing I am not married, so I HAVE to get this project in before I am

Woo that is expensive. I was about to suggest doubling up the woofers, which should give you an extra 3-6Db.(thus halving/quartering you power requirements.) I use 2 10" per side and these give a sensitivity of 94Db per side. Plenty loud enough for music(using 60w per driver). Still needs sub for AV though..

Good luck anyway..

Rob
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Old 20th December 2003, 05:36 PM   #19
amo is offline amo  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobWells



Woo that is expensive. I was about to suggest doubling up the woofers, which should give you an extra 3-6Db.(thus halving/quartering you power requirements.) I use 2 10" per side and these give a sensitivity of 94Db per side. Plenty loud enough for music(using 60w per driver). Still needs sub for AV though..

Good luck anyway..

Rob
I have not had a chance to look into 4 ohm loads for Aleph-x, but I have a strange feeling that halfing the impedence of the load will still double the heat output of the amp.... Don't know for sure though.
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Old 20th December 2003, 05:38 PM   #20
amo is offline amo  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pan
The SS ring has a 3 ohm winding.

/Peter
ATC mid is 5.2 ohm.... Does this mean that in need almost twice the power?
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