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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 21st October 2013, 06:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
The pathlength from tweeter -ceiling-ear is the same with tilt or without. Tilting reduces floor reflections effectively (larger angle) but sidewall reflections are almost same. The relative proprotions of reflections from different surfaces changes.

Floor bounce is often the most annoying and it's cancellation F is usually at range of 200-400Hz Floor/Ceiling Reflection Calculator

Generally I like the idea of tilted midrange horn!
The gradient midrange is a cardioid, so that definitely has an effect too.

Here's a funny story about cardioids:

I've raved a couple of times about how amazing some of the prosound sub setups are these days. For instance, Excision toured with PK Sound last year, and I've never heard bass like that in my life. But nearly every show that I've been to in 2013 has had the same crummy bass that I hate. Just a dull undefined roar, with no 'kick' and no 'slam.' The shows I've been to in 2013 just sounded like a bunch of mush.

Just a short list of shows with mushy bass:
1) Mad Decent Block Party
2) Datsik
3) Flux Pavillion

But last Friday I saw Placebo at the Wiltern, and *boom*, the show brought the bass! Tight, defined, slammin' bass.

And lo and behold, what did I notice on stage?

Yup, a cardioid array.

I'm starting to think that's what basically spells the difference between crummy bass and great bass is just use a cardioid. It's odd, because cardioid arrays seem to be semi-ignored by the diyaudio set.

Both Bassnectar and Placebo were using the same cardioid setup, with an array of subs in front, and a second array behind the first.

Like this:

How To......Cardioid Sub Arrays - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1
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Old 22nd October 2013, 12:14 AM   #12
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Maybe you could get rid of diffraction at the midrange taps
by not having holes. Make the throat of foam or cardboard
with some bending mode radiators around the outside...

You said you were crossing with dsp anyway, so can you
blend the required mid delay without the phase shift of a
frustrum's cavity and taphole?

Last edited by kenpeter; 22nd October 2013 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 12:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpeter View Post
Maybe you could get rid of diffraction at the midrange taps
by not having holes. Make the throat of foam or cardboard
with some bending mode radiators around the outside...

You said you were crossing with dsp anyway, so can you
blend the required mid delay without the phase shift of a
frustrum's cavity and taphole?
I am going to deal with diffraction from the midrange taps by filling everything with foam. I have 30ppi reticulated foam but I may try higher densities also. We have so much midrange power to burn, I don't think it would be crazy to use foam that's even higher density than 30ppi if necessary.

BMRs would probably work too though. I heard the Linn speaker at CES with a big BMR and it sounded fantastic.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 08:01 PM   #14
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Here's a tentative summary of the frequency ranges, crossover slopes, drivers, etc

1) tweeter: Celestion CDX1-1425, 1500hz - 20khz
2) midrange: Dayton ND91 x 3, 180hz - 1500hz. This is the driver most likely to change, as I'm not sure if I can get them to cover a bandwidth that's this wide.
If you're going to use a mid with rubber surround, then you might want to look at the Faital 3FE25 in 16 ohms. Three of them can be wired in parallel and a 2.7 ohm series resistor can serve to bring them back to a nominal 8 ohms and give some attenuation to match the sensitivity of the compression driver. If you want to go bigger, then the 4FE35 is also available in 16 ohms.

FaitalPRO 3FE25 3" Professional Woofer 16 Ohm 294-1105
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Old 22nd October 2013, 08:02 PM   #15
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Since you are saying you want to use three mids, I'm guessing you are planning on a round horn with the mids mounted each at 120 degrees?
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Old 22nd October 2013, 09:22 PM   #16
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Regarding faital 3" drivers: the 4 ohm are superior EBP, sensitivity, No%..
I don't know why 16's are so much worse, I'm guessing dead weight of
excess coils outside the gap.

Patrick wants a silly high Q, and has his formula. But then complains
mids don't play high enough. I think time alignment should be in the
dsp crossover, and not by sandbagging mechanicals to make delay...

The 16ohm have higher Q and narrower EBP (given no cup on back
yet, they may not be all that different). but I think this is the wrong
direction to purposely go...
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Old 22nd October 2013, 09:56 PM   #17
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpeter View Post
I'm guessing dead weight of
excess coils outside the gap.
according to specs, the 16ohm is lighter, so I guess not the reason but Qts is much higher

btw, superior in what way ?

but sometimes specs may not be quite right, and unreliable
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Old 22nd October 2013, 10:23 PM   #18
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I will be getting 4 of the 4ohm Neos for a different experiment.
We can see then if the published specs are accurate. But just
look to the half space efficiency, Q, EBP. And I ask you why
the 4 is so different from 16? In both the 3 and 4 inch series,
both the ferrite and neo. Makes mis-measurement of the spec
by Faital seem unlikely...
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Old 22nd October 2013, 10:52 PM   #19
JLH is offline JLH  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenpeter View Post
Regarding faital 3" drivers: the 4 ohm are superior EBP, sensitivity, No%..
I don't know why 16's are so much worse, I'm guessing dead weight of
excess coils outside the gap.

Patrick wants a silly high Q, and has his formula. But then complains
mids don't play high enough. I think time alignment should be in the
dsp crossover, and not by sandbagging mechanicals to make delay...

The 16ohm have higher Q and narrower EBP (given no cup on back
yet, they may not be all that different). but I think this is the wrong
direction to purposely go...
Once you get those drivers on a Synergy horn, the EBP difference between them doesn't matter. Drivers with relative lower No% respond with higher horn gain over that of a higher No% driver. Saying there is a difference between the 4 ohm / 8 ohm / and 16 ohm model of the same driver would be like splitting hairs. Feel free to use what ever model gets you to the desired impedance. I prefer to wire drivers in a parallel when ever possible. You must always consider the effect of the other driver's Le on the response of the other drivers when you wire them in series. Sometimes it can help, sometimes it hurts you.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 12:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLH View Post
Since you are saying you want to use three mids, I'm guessing you are planning on a round horn with the mids mounted each at 120 degrees?
I am approximating the LeCleach curve by using square conical for the first half of the horn, mated to a monster roundover for the second half.

Here's how I'm doing it:

Jean Michel on LeCleac'h horns

The only reason I'm considering three drivers is because I'm not certain I can fit four.
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