Hi !
i have ordered these Behringer B2030A and my feeling is that they will go out of production soon (so you can find them for very good price i think)
I think that the design is very interesting but of course some savings must have been done.
The sound is said to be quite good even in the original form.
I have a strong feeeling that could be made extremely good with some mods.
I am willing to open them but i want to keep the good things.
And not to modify them externally.
They should look more or less the same at the end of the surgery.
So i would address:
1) drivers
2) mods on electronics aimed to reduce noise/distortion from the internal amps.
They should arrive in two weeks time and i will post my impression after listening them in stock form.
If anyone knows or have experience of the specific loudspeakers please share your opinion with us.
Thanks a lot and kindest regards,
gino
i have ordered these Behringer B2030A and my feeling is that they will go out of production soon (so you can find them for very good price i think)
I think that the design is very interesting but of course some savings must have been done.
The sound is said to be quite good even in the original form.
I have a strong feeeling that could be made extremely good with some mods.
I am willing to open them but i want to keep the good things.
And not to modify them externally.
They should look more or less the same at the end of the surgery.
So i would address:
1) drivers
2) mods on electronics aimed to reduce noise/distortion from the internal amps.
They should arrive in two weeks time and i will post my impression after listening them in stock form.
If anyone knows or have experience of the specific loudspeakers please share your opinion with us.
Thanks a lot and kindest regards,
gino
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Thanks for the invite, Gino! Saying what you did will probably prod me back into action - I kicked off the exercise about a year ago to enhance a pair of these units, but it sank largely into the background for a number of reasons - principal one being that I copped a solid dose of burnout from many years of hammering my brain in computing and other things, and my mental stamina is poor. So, if I don't jump up and down with boundless enthusiasm at times, you'll know why, 
...
I actually kicked off my stint at diyAudio by starting a thread about my thoughts, etc, at the time about this project, this is it: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/214725-silk-purse-project-musical-studio-monitor.html. Probably best to persue that, ignoring the rampant negativity(!!) throughout, and then get back to me ...
Cheers,
...I actually kicked off my stint at diyAudio by starting a thread about my thoughts, etc, at the time about this project, this is it: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/214725-silk-purse-project-musical-studio-monitor.html. Probably best to persue that, ignoring the rampant negativity(!!) throughout, and then get back to me ...
Cheers,
Hi,
Zaph|Audio
You can find some measurements of the drivers on this page.
There is no point reading that pile of long winded hot air.
Except for :
rgds, sreten.
Zaph|Audio
You can find some measurements of the drivers on this page.
There is no point reading that pile of long winded hot air.
Except for :
rgds, sreten.
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Thanks for the invite, Gino! Saying what you did will probably prod me back into action - I kicked off the exercise about a year ago to enhance a pair of these units, but it sank largely into the background for a number of reasons - principal one being that I copped a solid dose of burnout from many years of hammering my brain in computing and other things, and my mental stamina is poor. So, if I don't jump up and down with boundless enthusiasm at times, you'll know why,
I actually kicked off my stint at diyAudio by starting a thread about my thoughts, etc, at the time about this project, this is it: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/214725-silk-purse-project-musical-studio-monitor.html. Probably best to persue that, ignoring the rampant negativity(!!) throughout, and then get back to me ...
Cheers,
Thank you very much indeed !
I had no plans for the weekend.
Now i have something to read with the most interest.
Kindest regards,
gino
Arrrggghhh ! if only i had read this first
Almost the same price ...
Thank you very much !
Kindest regards,
gino
Thanks for the invite, Gino!
Saying what you did will probably prod me back into action - I kicked off the exercise about a year ago to enhance a pair of these units, but it sank largely into the background for a number of reasons - principal one being that I copped a solid dose of burnout from many years of hammering my brain in computing and other things, and my mental stamina is poor.
So, if I don't jump up and down with boundless enthusiasm at times, you'll know why,
I actually kicked off my stint at diyAudio by starting a thread about my thoughts, etc, at the time about this project, this is it: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/214725-silk-purse-project-musical-studio-monitor.html.
Probably best to persue that, ignoring the rampant negativity(!!) throughout, and then get back to me ...
Cheers,
Hello Frank !
i read the 3D of the link and found it interesting because you can understand my curiosity about this speaker
The "modding" exercise is not new.
Even famous brands like Marantz had their SE or Signature line that usually sounded best than the basic unit.
Anyway if i have understood rightly you would address the power supply for first and maybe give a look at connections.
I will keep it in mind.
Thanks again
Kind regards,
gino
As Barleywater suggests, the 'correct' way is to make measurements as you go, but I've never followed this method. I've always trusted my ears, because that's ultimately the only thing that counts - there are plenty of components out there with tremendous measurements, or marvellous reputations - but when you listen you wonder what the fuss is about ...
But I agree about one change at a time - but 'measure' with your ears.
This monitor at reasonable levels does what counts very nicely, better than any of the others I heard on the day - but shows the limitations of the power supplies once past a certain SPL, just like most audio gear. When I got the units back home I used solo classical piano works to test the dynamics, and doing this it's easy to hear the tonal changes, the steady deterioration of the quality, impact of the sound as one attempts to raise the volume - this is well before the overload LED goes on. This is purely an electronics issue, nothing to do with the drivers.
And when you open it up it's pretty easy to see why: a reasonable toroid transformer, but everything else is microscopic. Just by stiffening the voltage rails where it counts a major difference will be made to dynamics ... I would aim to stabilise supplies sufficiently such that you can take it to the point of overload without tonal changes as a first step ...
But I agree about one change at a time - but 'measure' with your ears.
This monitor at reasonable levels does what counts very nicely, better than any of the others I heard on the day - but shows the limitations of the power supplies once past a certain SPL, just like most audio gear. When I got the units back home I used solo classical piano works to test the dynamics, and doing this it's easy to hear the tonal changes, the steady deterioration of the quality, impact of the sound as one attempts to raise the volume - this is well before the overload LED goes on. This is purely an electronics issue, nothing to do with the drivers.
And when you open it up it's pretty easy to see why: a reasonable toroid transformer, but everything else is microscopic. Just by stiffening the voltage rails where it counts a major difference will be made to dynamics ... I would aim to stabilise supplies sufficiently such that you can take it to the point of overload without tonal changes as a first step ...
Hello to Everyone !
some years ago i found and read a paper by Lynn Olson on loudspeakers.
An extremely interesting and valuable paper i think.
He was mentioning the drivers selection by ear.
As i do not trust completely my ears i usually prefer to rely on graph and figures.
But i think he was very right.
In the end it is how the transducer converts the electric signals in music.
So sending music to them and listening seems really the natural way to select them.
Then he went on talking about materials.
The 2030a have PP cones. Hardly the best material.
Look at the pro products. You will not find PP cones at all.
I do not like plastic. I like the German school of paper cones.
Nevertheless on the basis of what i heard from MBL speakers i would give aluminium cones a try. The sound was unbelievably clean and powerful. And i liked it ver very much.
I know that Visaton offers this kind of drivers. The 170 mm is very tempting indeed.
For the tweeter there are more opportunities ... a cut at 2kHz 24dB/octave should not put a great stress on the tweeter i think
After having seen the pictures (thank you for that Mr. Phenomenological ) i am not impressed about the amps quality ( and this is perfectly normal )
But i have to wait the delivery beacuse i would like to break in the speakers well before any mods.
Thank you very much indeed
Kind regards,
gino
some years ago i found and read a paper by Lynn Olson on loudspeakers.
An extremely interesting and valuable paper i think.
He was mentioning the drivers selection by ear.
As i do not trust completely my ears i usually prefer to rely on graph and figures.
But i think he was very right.
In the end it is how the transducer converts the electric signals in music.
So sending music to them and listening seems really the natural way to select them.
Then he went on talking about materials.
The 2030a have PP cones. Hardly the best material.
Look at the pro products. You will not find PP cones at all.
I do not like plastic. I like the German school of paper cones.
Nevertheless on the basis of what i heard from MBL speakers i would give aluminium cones a try. The sound was unbelievably clean and powerful. And i liked it ver very much.
I know that Visaton offers this kind of drivers. The 170 mm is very tempting indeed.
For the tweeter there are more opportunities ... a cut at 2kHz 24dB/octave should not put a great stress on the tweeter i think
After having seen the pictures (thank you for that Mr. Phenomenological
) i am not impressed about the amps quality ( and this is perfectly normal )But i have to wait the delivery beacuse i would like to break in the speakers well before any mods.
Thank you very much indeed
Kind regards,
gino
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Hello Frank !
so the compression comes from the electronics and not from the drivers ?
I see. If you mean beefing up the supply caps should be feasible i think.
And also adding a transformer should not be that big issue.
I am pleased by the fact that even in stock form they are nice.
And i like the wave guide design very very much.
They could have done it even deeper for a higher efficiency (i.e. like a horn i mean).
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
gino
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If you're not keen on the PP cones, then the B3031A offers a Kevlar cone. However the XO frequency is 3.6Khz for this model which seems pretty high for a cone this size.
Anyway, here is a photo of the internals of the B3031A, doesn't look too bad considering the price, there is some room if you wanted to add some extra smoothing caps in there:
Anyway, here is a photo of the internals of the B3031A, doesn't look too bad considering the price, there is some room if you wanted to add some extra smoothing caps in there:
If one wants to go round in circles for decades just to realize (or not) that the approach is nonsense then I would agree. Our ears aren't measuring instruments. Hearing is a process (or a multitude of processes) that is influences by numerous biases which can not be controlled. It's the opposite of what objective measurements are about.
Thank you very much but it is too late. Order placed.
And by the way i like very much the wave guide arrangement on the tweeter.
A deeper guide would be even better (i.e. similar to a horn i mean). Maybe with the tweeter coil on the same plane of the coil of the woofer ?
This should increase efficiency.
actually yes. It seems so. Maybe the ribbon tweeter is delicate i dont know.
Unfortunately it is another model. Maybe next time.Anyway, here is a photo of the internals of the B3031A, doesn't look too bad considering the price,
there is some room if you wanted to add some extra smoothing caps in there:
Actually i decided for the 2030 because a 6,5" woofers and a 1" tweeters can be found quite easily.
I was thinking about the fact that even higher priced monitors have chip amps.
I think that even in Genelec the use chip amps, if i am not wrong.
So my thinking is the most substantial difference must lie in the drivers, that can be extremely expensive.
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers-scanspeak/?p=catalog&mode=catalog&parent=224&pg=1&CatalogSetSortBy=price
Of course replacing a driver whit another one same size is technically pretty easy.
The crossover is electronic so it does not need rework.
Maybe some adjustments on the tweeter for different sensitivity (i.e. a resistor).
But also two caps is not that difficult.
I will post as soon as i will get them.
Thanks a lot and kind regards,
gino
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It all depends on what one is trying to measure. Agreed, if what one is after is the flattest possible FR, and certain dispersion patterns, then objective measurements will be ideal. However, that is not what this exercise is about - from my experience with the unit its major shortcoming is the typical inability to produce higher SPLs without distortion - which is not something which is not readily measured with instruments, but is easily discerned by ears alone.
An exercise I started a while ago, which I aim to continue developing, is to create test tracks which allow one to detect artifacts, or distortion content, by ear alone in an objective fashion, by mixing in low level signals which will induce audible beating and similar behaviour - the concept is akin to how a piano tuner plys his trade ...
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This thread looks to have some relevance - that is if the electronics for the 2031As aren't too different from those in the 2030As you've ordered?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/168780-improving-amp.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/168780-improving-amp.html
Hi,
Not another thread where fas42 just spouts a load of self
opioniated nonsense without ever giving any technical details.
If you want an opinion here is one :
New drivers ? forget it, your chucking money away.
Cabinet improvements - possible.
Simple drivers mods - possible.
Simple driver mounting mods - possible.
Simple upgrades to the electronics - possible if
you really know what you are doing, and can
identify simple mods at critical positions.
I've modded stuff for years and now have a pretty
good idea of what can work for not much cost, and
more importantly, what is simply not worth doing.
rgds, sreten.
Not another thread where fas42 just spouts a load of self
opioniated nonsense without ever giving any technical details.
If you want an opinion here is one :
New drivers ? forget it, your chucking money away.
Cabinet improvements - possible.
Simple drivers mods - possible.
Simple driver mounting mods - possible.
Simple upgrades to the electronics - possible if
you really know what you are doing, and can
identify simple mods at critical positions.
I've modded stuff for years and now have a pretty
good idea of what can work for not much cost, and
more importantly, what is simply not worth doing.
rgds, sreten.
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Hi Frank, I have a pair of the big brothers (B2031A) to your speakers.
The first thing I would do is impedance equalise (zobel networks) both the drivers, and try wiring them with Cat-6...cheap and effective.
IME zobels on tweeters can flatten and extend the HF output, and very pleasanty so.
Ditto the woofer, with deeper, less 'lumpy' lows and less audible breakup.
In the case of these internal power amplifiers with lousy power supply and short cables, less return energy (more purely resistive load) from the drivers ought to be especially beneficial
I have tried using Cat-6 as 'star quad' configuration (Or/W + Bn/W as Active, Bl/W +Gn/W as Neutral) but need to redo an AB with 4 parallel pairs (Or+Bn+Bl+Gn as Active, W+W+W+W as neutral) to determine if there are any real sonic differences.
Years ago I wired one of my boxes with 10 pair (A as 10 colours, N as 10 whites), and the modded box does sound clearer and 'bigger', however this cable is too impractical in this application....that's why I never got around to modding the other box.
You might have kick started me on a project that has been floating 'upstairs' for years, just waiting for the right day.....this could turn into a competition, lol.
Dan.
The first thing I would do is impedance equalise (zobel networks) both the drivers, and try wiring them with Cat-6...cheap and effective.
IME zobels on tweeters can flatten and extend the HF output, and very pleasanty so.
Ditto the woofer, with deeper, less 'lumpy' lows and less audible breakup.
In the case of these internal power amplifiers with lousy power supply and short cables, less return energy (more purely resistive load) from the drivers ought to be especially beneficial
I have tried using Cat-6 as 'star quad' configuration (Or/W + Bn/W as Active, Bl/W +Gn/W as Neutral) but need to redo an AB with 4 parallel pairs (Or+Bn+Bl+Gn as Active, W+W+W+W as neutral) to determine if there are any real sonic differences.
Years ago I wired one of my boxes with 10 pair (A as 10 colours, N as 10 whites), and the modded box does sound clearer and 'bigger', however this cable is too impractical in this application....that's why I never got around to modding the other box.
You might have kick started me on a project that has been floating 'upstairs' for years, just waiting for the right day
.....this could turn into a competition, lol.Dan.
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I was looking up info on the entire BxxxxA range as I imagine the electronics are pretty similar on all 4 models, especially the crossover components, so certain mods for the B3031A should work just as well on the B2030A, in theory at least, and those pics of the internals were the best I could find after a few minutes googling...
Anyway, as for moving the tweeter in line with the woofer, in the marketing stuff on the Behringer website, it seems to infer that the drivers are time aligned:
From: Behringer: TRUTH B2030A
"We packed 115-Watts of bi-amped technology (including a time- and phase-optimized active crossover) into every B2030A"
However just because the marketing info says so it may not mean that the alignment isn't perfect, I imagine some sort of all-pass filter will be used if the voice coils are not already in line.
Maybe a mod could be to bypass the all-pass filter and modify the waveguide also so that the voicecoils are in line?
I suggest measuring the time alignment first before changing anything...
If you plan on changing the woofer then I would sim the box beforehand, otherwise you may find the bass response goes to pot, but then it may just be a case of changing the port length in order to fix this. If the XO is at 1KHz however, you may find that a tweeter upgrade gives more dramatic results and no need to tinker with port lengths. The Monacor DT-100 may go down to 1KHz with a 24db/oct filter.
As for electronic based mods, space is restricted, the power supply upgrades will be hard to pull off, unless you throw away the toroid (if the B2030A even has a toroid) and try and squeeze a SMPS or two in there instead.
Another option would be to keep the existing power supply and replace (or should I say bypass) the Class AB amp with a quality class D amp. The increased efficiency will give similar results to a power supply upgrade, but again this could create more problems than it solves... EDIT: However, a decent quality Class-D should include some sort of Zobel network, Ideally you want to make sure this network is correct for the impedance of the woofer and tweeter. This could kill 2 birds with 1 stone. A TAS5630 based amp will work nicely on a 50v PSU...
In fact I think the best thing to do would be to first of all see what corners have been cut in order to build this at such a low cost, and ideally upgrade smaller cheaper components before moving on to more major mods. You may even find just replcing the trim pot with an Alps unit for example brings a little something extra. A stepped attenuator would be nice, but maybe a little overkill.
Bear in mind these are only suggestions, and feel free to tell me if these have any major downsides as I'm simply thinking out loud here... I will be interested in this thread and how much difference your mods make as I'm pretty tempted to pick up a pair of these myself, as I'm after something a little more portable and plug n play.
Good luck.
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You're on, Dan ...
The main music I used for sussing out the active monitors, when I was comparing - this included comparably sized Dynaudio, JBL, Mackie and Genelec units - was the live Peter Green 'Splinter' album - this is very well recorded, the bite of all the instruments has been well captured, along with tremendous ambience. The raw B2030A was the best unit on the day, by a decent margin, on reproducing the key elements of the sound cleanly, even when pushed to continual flashing of the overload LEDs ...
The Dynaudio's were a big disappointment, a very 'dead' sound - and I managed to kill a top of the line Mackie unit during the demo ...
The main music I used for sussing out the active monitors, when I was comparing - this included comparably sized Dynaudio, JBL, Mackie and Genelec units - was the live Peter Green 'Splinter' album - this is very well recorded, the bite of all the instruments has been well captured, along with tremendous ambience. The raw B2030A was the best unit on the day, by a decent margin, on reproducing the key elements of the sound cleanly, even when pushed to continual flashing of the overload LEDs ...
The Dynaudio's were a big disappointment, a very 'dead' sound - and I managed to kill a top of the line Mackie unit during the demo ...
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