I am still new to DIY audio and am still learning everything. It's a steep learning curve and it will take a long longer to absorb the knowledge.
That said, with some help from an old thread I wanted to design a speaker that could compete with the Paradigm S8's. jReave spent a large amount of time helping me, thanks!
My plan of attack is the following:
Tweeter QTY 1- ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6600 AirCirc
Mid QTY 1 -Scanspeak 15M/4531K Revelator 5.5" Midrange
Woofers QTY 4 - Exodus Anarchy
Woofers would be wired in a 2-parallel-series configuration for 8ohm.
I realize these are fairly high end drivers, especially for my first DIY, however my goal was to find something that competes and performs close to the S8's. I realize this is ambitious for a first build but I like the buy once cry once style.
Power:
Rotel RMB-1091 Monoblocks (have them already)
Rated 500watt RMS 8ohm, measured 600+
Rated 1kwatt RMS 4ohm, measured 1200+
What are your thoughts on the driver selection?
I need to continue reading and learning for enclosure design, baffle design, and crossover design. I know I can learn it, it will just take time. Thanks for the patients and help!
That said, with some help from an old thread I wanted to design a speaker that could compete with the Paradigm S8's. jReave spent a large amount of time helping me, thanks!
My plan of attack is the following:
Tweeter QTY 1- ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6600 AirCirc
Mid QTY 1 -Scanspeak 15M/4531K Revelator 5.5" Midrange
Woofers QTY 4 - Exodus Anarchy
Woofers would be wired in a 2-parallel-series configuration for 8ohm.
I realize these are fairly high end drivers, especially for my first DIY, however my goal was to find something that competes and performs close to the S8's. I realize this is ambitious for a first build but I like the buy once cry once style.
Power:
Rotel RMB-1091 Monoblocks (have them already)
Rated 500watt RMS 8ohm, measured 600+
Rated 1kwatt RMS 4ohm, measured 1200+
What are your thoughts on the driver selection?
I need to continue reading and learning for enclosure design, baffle design, and crossover design. I know I can learn it, it will just take time. Thanks for the patients and help!
Hi,
My advice would be walk before you can run.
Given that PM's advice is just simply wrong. 4 woofers
can be too efficient, but cannot be not efficient enough.
However your ambition way exceeds your knowledge,
and you won't learn much trying to go for broke 1st.
I'd say build these : Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
with an emphasis on cabinet issues to start off with.
Like most good designs the cabinets can be improved.
And FWIW given the design the cabinet issues are not that
complicated as an issue to optimise for the design particulars,
as you only really have to look at the bottom end issues.
I'll guarantee if you do you will end up with a very different
perspective on what you now seem to think is a good idea.
May not be your ideal speakers but they will be very good.
rgds, sreten.
My advice would be walk before you can run.
Given that PM's advice is just simply wrong. 4 woofers
can be too efficient, but cannot be not efficient enough.
However your ambition way exceeds your knowledge,
and you won't learn much trying to go for broke 1st.
I'd say build these : Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
with an emphasis on cabinet issues to start off with.
Like most good designs the cabinets can be improved.
And FWIW given the design the cabinet issues are not that
complicated as an issue to optimise for the design particulars,
as you only really have to look at the bottom end issues.
I'll guarantee if you do you will end up with a very different
perspective on what you now seem to think is a good idea.
May not be your ideal speakers but they will be very good.
rgds, sreten.
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Could be isobaric?!If the money is a significant sum for you then it looks rather unwise to me. Expensive drivers don't make much difference compared to getting the basics right. Having a crack at a complex DIY project is fine but you must expect to get a few things wrong which you will find when listening and measuring. I would suggest substituting drivers from the standard range of leading manufacturers.
1) If you are doing this as a learning experience, then an active digital crossover using something like MiniDSP or perhaps a pro amp with DSP like some of the Behringer iNukes is definitely the way to go.
You can change things in real time.
You don't have to solder or desolder circuit elements in order to modify or tweek things.
There is software that can even determine the DSP set up from measured responses or that can translate a DSP config into a passive crossover. Should you decide to go that way eventually.
2) Invest in measuring tools. Despite what the "cables have magical properties" crowd think, your ear is a very poor measuring tool and is unreliable. A good calibrated USB mike and software like REW can tell you lots of useful information and is very helpful for tracking down any subtle quirks that may be due to errors or problems that are not obvious.
RE: Driver selection
A well designed speaker with average drivers, which takes advantage of the characteristics of drivers and limits their flaws, will beat the stuffings out of a poorly designed speaker with really expensive components. There is a nigh infinite number of ways you can screw up a speaker or build in flaws that are not obvious and for which "common sense" is an inadequate guide.
Speaker design is a skill like any other. You don't paint the Mona Lisa or the Last Supper as your first painting. You do a paint by numbers and figure out if you are any good at it at all.
You can change things in real time.
You don't have to solder or desolder circuit elements in order to modify or tweek things.
There is software that can even determine the DSP set up from measured responses or that can translate a DSP config into a passive crossover. Should you decide to go that way eventually.
2) Invest in measuring tools. Despite what the "cables have magical properties" crowd think, your ear is a very poor measuring tool and is unreliable. A good calibrated USB mike and software like REW can tell you lots of useful information and is very helpful for tracking down any subtle quirks that may be due to errors or problems that are not obvious.
RE: Driver selection
A well designed speaker with average drivers, which takes advantage of the characteristics of drivers and limits their flaws, will beat the stuffings out of a poorly designed speaker with really expensive components. There is a nigh infinite number of ways you can screw up a speaker or build in flaws that are not obvious and for which "common sense" is an inadequate guide.
Speaker design is a skill like any other. You don't paint the Mona Lisa or the Last Supper as your first painting. You do a paint by numbers and figure out if you are any good at it at all.
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Hey mstang1988,
I wondered what ever became of your project. Nice to see that you are still plugging away at it.
For your specific goals, I still think those drivers are good choices. I would be interested in what other people thought too but you really need to post baffle dimensions, volume constraints and F3 goals to get any serious recommendations. Fitting 4 woofers that will go low enough into that size cabinet and maintain high sound quality is a challenge and the Anarchy's fit the bill nicely. If I recall correctly, the mid was chosen to match sensitivity. There are perhaps some other tweeters that may be just about as good but perhaps for a little less money. The new Satori comes to mind as 1 example. (The Madisound Speaker Store)
If you haven't figured it out yet, you need to go to the DIY Sound Group, Denovo Audio Anarchy woofer DIY Sound Group, in order to get the Anarchy's now. The original company has stopped selling them. See this thread too for more info - Over at AVS forum.....
Here's also an excellent thread on curved cabinet construction if you need some help in that area - coincidentally also using the Anarchy driver - Anarchy/Dayton TM build
Lastly, I would double my chances of success by also posting at the Parts Express Tech Talk Forum as well. Can't hurt. (Tech Talk Forum) Start at least by reading The Speaker Building Bible thread.
Whether or not you are in over your head I think is sort of up to you. I've found there are people that would be true for and others for which it doesn't apply. Certainly it would be easier if you have something else under your belt first but that doesn't mean that it can't be done. But it will be a very serious challenge. I hope you are up for it.
I wondered what ever became of your project. Nice to see that you are still plugging away at it.
For your specific goals, I still think those drivers are good choices. I would be interested in what other people thought too but you really need to post baffle dimensions, volume constraints and F3 goals to get any serious recommendations. Fitting 4 woofers that will go low enough into that size cabinet and maintain high sound quality is a challenge and the Anarchy's fit the bill nicely. If I recall correctly, the mid was chosen to match sensitivity. There are perhaps some other tweeters that may be just about as good but perhaps for a little less money. The new Satori comes to mind as 1 example. (The Madisound Speaker Store)
If you haven't figured it out yet, you need to go to the DIY Sound Group, Denovo Audio Anarchy woofer DIY Sound Group, in order to get the Anarchy's now. The original company has stopped selling them. See this thread too for more info - Over at AVS forum.....
Here's also an excellent thread on curved cabinet construction if you need some help in that area - coincidentally also using the Anarchy driver - Anarchy/Dayton TM build
Lastly, I would double my chances of success by also posting at the Parts Express Tech Talk Forum as well. Can't hurt. (Tech Talk Forum) Start at least by reading The Speaker Building Bible thread.
Whether or not you are in over your head I think is sort of up to you. I've found there are people that would be true for and others for which it doesn't apply. Certainly it would be easier if you have something else under your belt first but that doesn't mean that it can't be done. But it will be a very serious challenge. I hope you are up for it.
Active crossover is heart of a DIY start up.
I agree with GG,
The best investment you can make in DIY speaker building is to buy a good DSP active crossover. This will form the heart of any speaker system and maximise your ability to learn about crossover points / slopes / integrating a sub and enabling drivers to operate in their optimum frequency bands.
All very important stuff.
I would not be shy about buying good quality drivers, SS are a good bet.
I personally don't like small ( or even large) woofers with huge XMax....If a cone if having to travel plus / minus 10mm or more in order to produce a desired SPL my advice is to buy bigger woofers ( always go Pro IMO) and don't drive them as hard.
Golden rule in my book....As soon as your cones are pumping plus minus more than about 6mm for bass, 2mm for midrange double your Sd ( Surface area) and you will automatically half your driver excursion.
This will sound way better!
D.
I agree with GG,
The best investment you can make in DIY speaker building is to buy a good DSP active crossover. This will form the heart of any speaker system and maximise your ability to learn about crossover points / slopes / integrating a sub and enabling drivers to operate in their optimum frequency bands.
All very important stuff.
I would not be shy about buying good quality drivers, SS are a good bet.
I personally don't like small ( or even large) woofers with huge XMax....If a cone if having to travel plus / minus 10mm or more in order to produce a desired SPL my advice is to buy bigger woofers ( always go Pro IMO) and don't drive them as hard.
Golden rule in my book....As soon as your cones are pumping plus minus more than about 6mm for bass, 2mm for midrange double your Sd ( Surface area) and you will automatically half your driver excursion.
This will sound way better!
D.
Yup, thank's for the help. I did preorder the Anarchy which renewed my interest in this build. I ordered 12 (2 for center, 1 for each surround, 4 for each main). I couldn't resist the price
I guess you are going to cry to build a crossover for that midrange (project) unless you already have it...
I guess you are going to cry to build a crossover for that midrange (project) unless you already have it...
Yup, pretty much will be crying throughout the entire project.
I did preorder the Anarchy which renewed my interest in this build. I ordered 12 (2 for center, 1 for each surround, 4 for each main). I couldn't resist the price
Cool. Every time I look at those, I want to buy some even though I really don't need any.
Once they arrive, you're probably going to be itching to get going on your speaker but I would suggest not buying anything more until you've done a complete simulation and know that your chosen drivers will actually work well together.
Start with a box program to help you understand sealed vs ported and the relationships between Vb, Qtc, Fb, F3, step response, power, xmax, port velocity, effects of stuffing, etc, etc:
UniBox - Unified Box Model for Loudspeaker Design
LinearTeam
Loudspeaker Design Software
I have a preference for Unibox. Other people may prefer one of the others.
Then start drawing up some rough cabinet plans to see how volumes are going to work out and to figure out driver placements on the baffle. I find SketchUp to be pretty helpful in this regard, especially for curved cabinets as it has a built-in area calculator from which it is a simple matter to figure out box volumes (maybe it has a volume calculator too but I'm not sure about that).
Now that you know cabinet dimensions and driver placement, you can simulate the baffle diffraction effects:
Loudspeaker Design Software
Tolvan Data
That should keep you busy for a while.
After that, you'll need a frequency response combiner program and then a xo design program like PCD.
Try here - Tips, Volume 2- The setup!! - Blogs - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum - for a step-by-step walk through on how to do the whole process.
You also have to make a couple of key decisions I think:
1) simulation only or simulation with measured responses? The simulation programs are surprisingly accurate when done properly and then fine tuned by ear, but using measurements does increase the probability of success.
2) if measured, can you get someone else to do it or will you want to buy the gear and learn to do it yourself?
3) passive or active?
4) if active, matching driver sensitivities isn't as important so there may be other mid driver choices to look at.
Remember - there are no stupid questions. Everybody has to start at the beginning.
Thanks again for the more info, and you are right I want to design and build! The reason for posting this thread was to figure out what other drivers I really needed before ordering. This sounds sad but for some reason I really fell in love with the anarchy drivers and was willing to change the mids and highs if needed to work with these.Cool. Every time I look at those, I want to buy some even though I really don't need any.
Once they arrive, you're probably going to be itching to get going on your speaker but I would suggest not buying anything more until you've done a complete simulation and know that your chosen drivers will actually work well together.
Start with a box program to help you understand sealed vs ported and the relationships between Vb, Qtc, Fb, F3, step response, power, xmax, port velocity, effects of stuffing, etc, etc:
UniBox - Unified Box Model for Loudspeaker Design
LinearTeam
Loudspeaker Design Software
I have a preference for Unibox. Other people may prefer one of the others.
Then start drawing up some rough cabinet plans to see how volumes are going to work out and to figure out driver placements on the baffle. I find SketchUp to be pretty helpful in this regard, especially for curved cabinets as it has a built-in area calculator from which it is a simple matter to figure out box volumes (maybe it has a volume calculator too but I'm not sure about that).
Now that you know cabinet dimensions and driver placement, you can simulate the baffle diffraction effects:
Loudspeaker Design Software
Tolvan Data
That should keep you busy for a while.
After that, you'll need a frequency response combiner program and then a xo design program like PCD.
Try here - Tips, Volume 2- The setup!! - Blogs - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum - for a step-by-step walk through on how to do the whole process.
You also have to make a couple of key decisions I think:
1) simulation only or simulation with measured responses? The simulation programs are surprisingly accurate when done properly and then fine tuned by ear, but using measurements does increase the probability of success.
2) if measured, can you get someone else to do it or will you want to buy the gear and learn to do it yourself?
3) passive or active?
4) if active, matching driver sensitivities isn't as important so there may be other mid driver choices to look at.
Remember - there are no stupid questions. Everybody has to start at the beginning.
I already grabbed a few enclosure program and have been playing with that. I'm pretty knowledgeable with sketchup as well so that should be trivial to draw it up.
I'm going to try and convince somebody to help me measure the speakers. A guy from work has the equipment but I need to see if he has the time. If not I'll see if I can find somebody else in the Austin area to help with measurements. If not I don't know that I want to buy more equipment (I just don't want to store it).
Best advice to OP. Hope it takes advantage of.
The drivers (he bought) are a good handicap.
mstang1988,
They are always a disadvantage when you are buying first woofers or subs you don't know how they get in the picture.
They are also good midwoofers, but one of them (as a mid) is no match for the 91/W/m of the (4x) LF frequencies drivers when connected series/parallel, as a reference to you.
I'm sure they will make a good speaker, and you are also already bound for a type of drawing/project or max low frequency extension. Good part is you have four of them and can manage the type of design like a 3-Way or 3.5-Way... as one example only.
This is going to develop nicely in your favor if you concentrate in the project, not letting the thread die and paying close attention to the drivers, like you already did with a good, accurate and clever statement of your first post. Best.
I should have mentioned - make sure you get the 8 ohm Anarchy's and not the new 4 ohm version they are also making available. That is if you want to maintain the same sensitivity for passive xo matching to the sensitivity of your mid. The 4 ohm is likely to be more sensitive although I'm just guessing on that, I haven't seen the specs.
Inductor, you should have a look at the speaker that the OP is trying to imitate - Paradigm | Signature Collection | Signature S8 | Overview. It creates some very specific design requirements - narrow baffle, low volume, low F3, high SQ, etc.
The strength of the Anarchy's is that they'll go quite low in a relatively small volume for a 7" driver and do so fairly cleanly. For the mids though, there are lots of other drivers with lower distortion in the 300 to 3000Hz range. However many of them aren't sensitive enough to match 4 of the Anarchy's 90-91dB output like you mention, even after we take baffle step into account. I've suggested one of the 4 ohm Revelators. The Satori might sound better but it's right on the edge in terms of sensitivity I think. One of the new Vifa NE's might work, I've been seeing some really positive comments about some of those. No one else seems to be making any suggestions though.....
That's exactly what I preordered. Thank you again for all of the help. I sent you a PM with another question related to unibox.
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