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Old 29th September 2013, 02:22 PM   #21
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
They certainly don't think much about the timbral or reverb differencies.
They may not think about it, but they do notice it. That is the remarkable thing about very good acoustic playback, its tone. Everyone notices it. It's colored, to be sure, but the colorations seem natural and pleasant - lifelike. From what I've read, Edison and company taught the singers to imitate the colorations of the playback to better fool the audience. My guess would be that some singer heard himself on the record and was goofing around imitating the sound. Presto! Life imitates art and whole series of demos was born.
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Old 29th September 2013, 04:54 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Ben,

Sorry, don't recall having heard Rene Fleming singing, but having recorded many artists in my home studio, there have been times when I have mistaken playback for the real thing.

The room, speaker placement and adjacent room all tend to interfere with your "high expectations", even leaving speaker quality out of the picture.

If you could do a (good) ambient recording of Rene Fleming singing in your music room, then play it back through one (good) speaker in the same position, your "high expectations" could be met.

However, since your particular listening room is populated by multiple speakers that are all not time aligned to any point in said room, there is no way you will meet your "high expectations" without sitting down to design and then produce a system that can perform the function that you desire, or purchasing speakers that have been designed with the parameters that would allow your expectations to be met.

Others have had no problem reaching the goal of a good audio representation of the recording- probably better as far at fooling my ears than even a 3-D film or TV in convincing the representation it is reality.

Art
Rare to read at this forum an ego-maniac post that so baldly shouts,"My system is FABULOUS but yours is crap."

Gosh, I wonder how time-alignment (which is just dandy on my system north of my horn sub, thank you) affects sound "down the hall"? In any case, many readers of this forum would most likely include time-alignment in any trustworthy list of the 500 most important audio design factors.

Maybe I should re-post weltersys comments to the ESL forum...might give them quite a stir. Actually, might give anybody (a) with a couple of subs, (b) with a couple of listener seats, or (c) a TH or other horn quite a stir.

B.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 29th September 2013 at 05:06 PM.
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Old 29th September 2013, 05:15 PM   #23
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They may not think about it, but they do notice it. That is the remarkable thing about very good acoustic playback, its tone. Everyone notices it. It's colored, to be sure, but the colorations seem natural and pleasant - lifelike. snip
I think you are on to something.

But the distinction usually made is between some kind of engineering perfection versus some kind of personal enjoyment perfection. The two, as you point out, don't have to be quite the same thing. Indeed, if producers didn't crank up the solo parts in orchestra recordings (which obviously violates engineering objectivity)*, we'd think the sound was very deficient. Likewise for the often noted comment that bass needs to be boosted over "flat" to make it sound right at home.

Almost needless to mention, on pop recordings producers do all kinds of tricks to enhance enjoyment without fussing about objectively capturing the sound of the performers.

Ben
*in a concert setting, your "ears" point to, say, a woodwind soloist inside the orchestra (OK, I mean your attention and vision) so you attend/hear the soloist stand out like the score intended. Not possible when you are the passive recipient of sound from a recording.... so the producer cranks up the soloists to better capture the intention of the score.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 29th September 2013 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 29th September 2013, 07:27 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Gosh, I wonder how time-alignment (which is just dandy on my system north of my horn sub, thank you) affects sound "down the hall"?
Ben,

As Earl Geddes wrote in post #2:
"I have a recording of a classical pianist playing a piano with no room acoustics. When played back in my room, the piano IS in the room with you. It can be done."

A large source of sound like a piano can be emulated by a pair of loudspeakers with distance between them in the same room, but your goals specified in post #1:
"*When stepping down the hall or into another room, have EVER thought Rene Fleming was singing in your music room? Or even a simple flute or guitar? "

are asking a compact point source to be reproduced by a pair of loudspeakers "down the hall" and still sound like a compact point source.

Your pair of ESL speakers and tweeters (or Earl's, or anyone's speakers) can only possibly time align at one point in space, unlike Edison's single speaker reproducing a voice, and trained vocalists copying the reproduced sound.
The sound of two separated speakers, even if they were "perfect" won't sound like a single source other than at the point where they are in time alignment (presumably at the listening position) because they are not a single source.

Even using a single ESL the dispersion and radiation pattern is not similar to a human voice, a flute or guitar, so other than in the stereo triangle the illusion of reality tends to break down.

I'd expect your goal of stepping down the hall and hearing a single point source sound like a single point source would be better achieved by using just one of your ESL speakers.

Give it a try, DIY .

Art
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Old 29th September 2013, 07:40 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Others have had no problem reaching the goal of a good audio representation of the recording- probably better as far at fooling my ears than even a 3-D film or TV in convincing the representation it is reality.

Art

Art - I had this same thought. We accept the completely unconvincing nature of film without question, but expect the untenable from the audio. Just as film in and of itself IS the art-form two channel playback is exactly the same way. That it can never be completely convincing recreating a large venue in a small room, neither can film make me actually believe that the building is coming down around me. To expect such a situation is simply absurd. Your brain knows that you are in a small room and it is not going to allow you to believe otherwise. But that in no way limits the scope of the medium as "it is what it is".
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Old 29th September 2013, 07:43 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Rare to read at this forum an ego-maniac post that so baldly shouts,"My system is FABULOUS but yours is crap."

B.
This was uncalled for. Art is one of the more reasonable people around here. And that's NOT what he was saying. Thus far I agree with him far more than I agree with you.
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Old 29th September 2013, 10:04 PM   #27
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The discussion is narrowing to "Believers" and "Non-believers." I'll resist suggesting that bears any resemblance to the debate about seeing the Loch Ness Monster*.

I think it is fair to say that thinking the Chicago Symphony Orchestra led by the long-dead Fritz Reiner is in your room, whether you are in the room or down the hall, is not claimed by anyone. On the other hand, there's no argument about whether you can tell when the drummer is scrubbing his or her feet on the floor.

The Believer high-ground is to argue you should record with no room ambiance and then play back in the same room (with its ambiance being necessarily present on reproduction). Moreover, despite the fact that a single speaker can't emit sound like a singer or instrument (electric instruments excepted), two speakers can, it is claimed.

For sure, I believe you can make great music at home. I just am a Non-believer that I would be fooled using present gear into thinking Rene Fleming is in my music room (even with eyes closed and a clothespin on my nose).

Ben
*all those owning hotels around Loch Ness have seen the monster many times, sadly only when alone.
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Old 29th September 2013, 10:09 PM   #28
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All I wanted to do in starting this thread is to offer the observation that there are no design or material obstacles to making a fine coffee brewer. But today, speaker reproduction gear is a mess of compromises*.

For example why can't you buy a woofer with a free-air resonance a safe octave or two below the range demanded of that driver (like 7 Hz)? And also capable of playing just fine an octave or two above the crossover point? And not having a screwy impedance curve? And having reasonably uniform dispersion?

Ben
* I buy amps decades old because it has been decades since amps became 95% capable of doing what they need to do.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 29th September 2013 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 29th September 2013, 11:24 PM   #29
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Time to cool off, Ben. You asked a few questions, you got some answers. Leave it at that. Belittling the respondents is poor form.
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Old 30th September 2013, 12:11 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
For example why can't you buy a woofer with a free-air resonance a safe octave or two below the range demanded of that driver (like 7 Hz)? And also capable of playing just fine an octave or two above the crossover point? And not having a screwy impedance curve? And having reasonably uniform dispersion?
Physics.



I don't know a lot about you or your system but I do know you don't simulate anything before you build and I don't think you measure anything after it's built or once it's placed into the system in the room.

Add to that the fact that all the products in your sig are extremely old and don't reflect current parts or design capabilities. In fact I think every product in your sig is an antique (although I can't be sure without exact model numbers.)

For example, if you are using esl mids and esl tweeters, what's the center to center distance between them and the crossover point? For a 3200 hz crossover they shouldn't be any further apart than 4 inches c-t-c maximum or you are going to have lobing and comb filtering problems. You can't fix that with eq or even dsp.

And then there's the klipschorn. I don't know much about that horn either but I doubt it's a good horn by today's standards despite Klipsh's proud statement "The only speaker in the world to be in continuous production for 60 years, and remain relatively unchanged since its inception." Here's a pic of the Khorn's frequency response from here - North Reading Engineering KV1 KV2 Crossovers - Klipsch Upgrades and Restorations
If you had a massive room mode right around 70 hz that might be bearable but otherwise ...

Click the image to open in full size.

Now the antique Stevens woofer probably has xmax of around 2 mm or so and on any reasonably sized OB it's probably grossly distorting at moderate spl. And you probably run the OB and the Khorn at the same time in the same passband and they are probably not phase cohesive.

Anyway, the point is that if you are running a bunch of antiques and ignoring best design practices it's not really fair to say that loudspeaker technology is primitive. Loudspeakers can sound spectacularly realistic if you use the best technology, set them up properly, and use a recording that was produced with this goal in mind.

Last edited by just a guy; 30th September 2013 at 12:14 AM.
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