Friend wants me to build a sound bar for an apartment. No true sub woofer, too much for neighbors. Wants great clear sound with some bass.
His TV sits on a credenza thingy about 4 feet long. Tv is about 42" wide. Not much room in his place for speakers on stands.
This pedestal-style sound bar design would have the TV sit on top of the flat down firing woofer.
Like this type: SpeakerCraft CS3 Review - Watch CNET's Video Review
Since SEOS 12 has a great polar response so I thought put them on hinges by mounting the seos to a MDF frame that has a roundover. Or a small mdf open back box for more support. Attached to a flat woofer (firing down, port pointing forward) box and let him swing the seos to create the right sound and imaging for his listening position, around 6-8 feet away.
See Top View image below.
Xovers probably all 2nd order.
One small 10-20watt stereo amp inside the woofer box for mids and seos. One 50w amp for woofer.
The mid driver and woofer below are ideas that look like they might work well.
1,200hz- 16khz SEOS 12 and Denovo Audio DNA-350 Compression Driver
Denovo Audio DNA-350 compression driver DIY Sound Group
SEOS-12? Gloss Finish - SEOS? - Plastic - The SEOS? Waveguides DIY Sound Group
150hz - 1,200hz MID DRIVER FaitalPRO 6FE200 6" Professional Midrange Speaker 8 Ohm
FaitalPRO 6FE200 6" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm 294-1152
50hz- 150hz WOOFER Dayton Audio PA200-8
Dayton Audio PA200-8 8" Pro Woofer Speaker 295-025
Anybody have any constructive thoughts about this project? Thank, Bruce
(One other option to save him some money was to use the EOS8 Denovo Audio EOS-8 DIY Sound Group with DNA 150 Denovo Audio DNA-150 compression driver DIY Sound Group with a xover around 2khz. Still mounted on MDF with roundovers and hinges. MID could be FaitalPRO 4FE35 4" [/size]FaitalPRO 4FE35 4" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm 294-1124 or similar)[/b]
Top view. TV would sit on the 18 x 18 x 8" sub box.
Front view.
His TV sits on a credenza thingy about 4 feet long. Tv is about 42" wide. Not much room in his place for speakers on stands.
This pedestal-style sound bar design would have the TV sit on top of the flat down firing woofer.
Like this type: SpeakerCraft CS3 Review - Watch CNET's Video Review
Since SEOS 12 has a great polar response so I thought put them on hinges by mounting the seos to a MDF frame that has a roundover. Or a small mdf open back box for more support. Attached to a flat woofer (firing down, port pointing forward) box and let him swing the seos to create the right sound and imaging for his listening position, around 6-8 feet away.
See Top View image below.
Xovers probably all 2nd order.
One small 10-20watt stereo amp inside the woofer box for mids and seos. One 50w amp for woofer.
The mid driver and woofer below are ideas that look like they might work well.
1,200hz- 16khz SEOS 12 and Denovo Audio DNA-350 Compression Driver
Denovo Audio DNA-350 compression driver DIY Sound Group
SEOS-12? Gloss Finish - SEOS? - Plastic - The SEOS? Waveguides DIY Sound Group
150hz - 1,200hz MID DRIVER FaitalPRO 6FE200 6" Professional Midrange Speaker 8 Ohm
FaitalPRO 6FE200 6" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm 294-1152
50hz- 150hz WOOFER Dayton Audio PA200-8
Dayton Audio PA200-8 8" Pro Woofer Speaker 295-025
Anybody have any constructive thoughts about this project? Thank, Bruce
(One other option to save him some money was to use the EOS8 Denovo Audio EOS-8 DIY Sound Group with DNA 150 Denovo Audio DNA-150 compression driver DIY Sound Group with a xover around 2khz. Still mounted on MDF with roundovers and hinges. MID could be FaitalPRO 4FE35 4" [/size]FaitalPRO 4FE35 4" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm 294-1124 or similar)[/b]
Top view. TV would sit on the 18 x 18 x 8" sub box.
Front view.
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You message is a little hard to understand for me. But if I understand a little bit, would it be better to cross over at 2200hz (wavelength 6.1") to 2500hz (wavelength 5.4" on a 6" driver) to have the mid driver be more directional at the xover.
If that's true, then I would use a smaller waveguide like the EOS 6 or EOS 8 using the DNA 150 CD (saving my friend some money but maybe using Eminence Alpha-6A 6" Midrange 8 Ohm Eminence Alpha-6A 6" Midrange 8 Ohm 290-400)
EOS 6: Denovo Audio EOS6 waveguide DIY Sound Group
EOS 8: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguides/other-waveguides/eos-8.htm
DNA 150: Denovo Audio DNA-150 compression driver DIY Sound Group
Did I understand what you meant?
Additional concept info:
The idea of this sound bar is to sit the TV on top, be small, efficient and very dynamic from 100-200hz on up.
He listens a lot to the music channels (Time Warner Cable) on his cable box, like R&B, disco and lounge type music. He'll be using the 3.5mm port for music from iPod/Pad/Phone devices.
Bass only has to go down to 40-60hz. Most likely around 60hz. Finding efficient bass in a small size as always, seems to be a barrier right now.
I might add in Bluetooth, but does it still sound as crappy as it did about 2 years ago? Anyone know?
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I think so.
You'll have a hard time finding a smaller woofer with high efficiency and a low fs.
Because it doesn't exist. Check out the Anarchy woofer if you want deep bass in a small package, but it's far from efficient.
One other solution I came up with was to use 2 mid drivers per side to keep the xover around 1200hz. But it was getting expensive. If doubling the drivers is a workable solution maybe I'll look for 2 similar, efficient, cheaper drivers.
For example PRV Audio 6MB200 6-1/2" PRV Audio 6MB200 6-1/2" Midbass Woofer 8 Ohm 294-2700
Would using 2 5-6" mid drivers per side (essentially now a 10-12" mid to match the 11" wavelength for 1200hz xover) be another good solution?
Thanks
I had looked at the anarchy. Too inefficient. Much to like.
I think the efficiency and other parameters make this a better choice for this app Dayton Audio PA200-8 8" Pro Woofer Speaker 295-025 I'm open to other suggestions.
I have to keep the design a slim horizontal to work so that means extra compromises. I had to give up on vertical directivity.
Having the waveguides on hinges so they can be angled to cross in front of the center listener position, and have the mids firing straight ahead, would hopefully make the horizontal plane less of a problem.
Thanks
UPDATE
A close photo representation of what it could look like.
Using the EOS 8 without a MDF round over. This waveguide has a round over already. Not perfect but maybe good enough.
Hinges from Home Depot?
Scale is pretty accurate. It would be 44" wide.
BASS Dayton Audio PA200-8 8" Pro Woofer Speaker 295-025
XOVER 180hz 2nd order
MID Eminence Beta-6A 6-1/2" High Power Midbass Woofer 290-662
XOVER 2000hz 2nd order
TWEETER Denovo Audio EOS-8 DIY Sound Group
Denovo Audio DNA-150 compression driver DIY Sound Group
EOS 8
A close photo representation of what it could look like.
Using the EOS 8 without a MDF round over. This waveguide has a round over already. Not perfect but maybe good enough.
Hinges from Home Depot?
Scale is pretty accurate. It would be 44" wide.
BASS Dayton Audio PA200-8 8" Pro Woofer Speaker 295-025
XOVER 180hz 2nd order
MID Eminence Beta-6A 6-1/2" High Power Midbass Woofer 290-662
XOVER 2000hz 2nd order
TWEETER Denovo Audio EOS-8 DIY Sound Group
Denovo Audio DNA-150 compression driver DIY Sound Group
EOS 8
In all honesty, a pair of 3" or 4" full range combined with a woofer would probably be enough.
Though I will say, as a visual concept, your speaker does look cool.
That fact that you have chosen a sound bar, already compromise the design. Next the larger you bass driver, the larger you cabinet needs to be. I suspect a well chosen 5" or 6.5" would work well and sound good. A system like this is simply not going to go that deep not matter what woofer you put in it.
The Dayton 3" Truncated is very small yet still reasonably full range.
Dayton Audio RS75T-8 3" Reference Full-Range Driver Truncate 295-336
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-336-dayton-audio-rs75t-8-specifications.pdf
The frequency response isn't perfect but probably tolerable. Though there are several other making small full range speaker - Tang Band, Fostex, Peerless, HiVi, others. The rated low end on this speaker is 160hz.
Add to that a woofer, and you should be set.
Tang Band makes a lot of nice 3" and 4" full range that are 4 ohms, you could put two of these in series on each side, for less distortion and more power handling. Then again, add the woofer or your choice.
The down firing woofer will have to be high enough off the cabinet to give the woofer sound somewhere to go, though that's probably not a critical matter.
Like I said, I think you have come up with a cool design concept. I'm just not sure how practical or affordable it is.
The Vas on the 8" speaker you've chosen it a modest 0.5ft³. That should be workable. However, the rate bass on that speaker is only 70hz. Which is just so-so. You don't really need an 8" woofer to only go down to 70hz.
The Dayton Classic 8" is rated down to 29hz, but has a Vas of 1.78 ft³ which is more substantial in size. Though one need not adhere specifically to the Vas specification.
The Dayton Classic 6.5" is rated down to 30hz, and has a Vas of 0.87 ft³. That seems workable.
The Dayton 4" full range has a flatter and deeper frequency response, and is available in 4 ohm or 8 ohm.
Dayton Audio RS100-8 4" Reference Full-Range Driver 295-352
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-352s.pdf
Notice in the PDF file, the response is flatter than the 3" model, and response goes down to 100hz, though it would be wise to cross higher than that.
The 3" and 4" Tang Bands, and a few others, are going to be very similar in response and depth. You could put two 8 ohms, or you could put four 4 ohms in a box. The output would be about the same, but the four 4 ohms in series will have less excursion, less distortion, and more power handling ability.
Again, your design concept looks really cool, and I'm sure it would sound good. I'm just not sure it is necessary to achieve the goal. Still, what is necessary is not always what is desired. I don't need a BMW, but I sure do desire one.
I'm simply providing an alternative view on the subject.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
Though I will say, as a visual concept, your speaker does look cool.
That fact that you have chosen a sound bar, already compromise the design. Next the larger you bass driver, the larger you cabinet needs to be. I suspect a well chosen 5" or 6.5" would work well and sound good. A system like this is simply not going to go that deep not matter what woofer you put in it.
The Dayton 3" Truncated is very small yet still reasonably full range.
Dayton Audio RS75T-8 3" Reference Full-Range Driver Truncate 295-336
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-336-dayton-audio-rs75t-8-specifications.pdf
The frequency response isn't perfect but probably tolerable. Though there are several other making small full range speaker - Tang Band, Fostex, Peerless, HiVi, others. The rated low end on this speaker is 160hz.
Add to that a woofer, and you should be set.
Tang Band makes a lot of nice 3" and 4" full range that are 4 ohms, you could put two of these in series on each side, for less distortion and more power handling. Then again, add the woofer or your choice.
The down firing woofer will have to be high enough off the cabinet to give the woofer sound somewhere to go, though that's probably not a critical matter.
Like I said, I think you have come up with a cool design concept. I'm just not sure how practical or affordable it is.
The Vas on the 8" speaker you've chosen it a modest 0.5ft³. That should be workable. However, the rate bass on that speaker is only 70hz. Which is just so-so. You don't really need an 8" woofer to only go down to 70hz.
The Dayton Classic 8" is rated down to 29hz, but has a Vas of 1.78 ft³ which is more substantial in size. Though one need not adhere specifically to the Vas specification.
The Dayton Classic 6.5" is rated down to 30hz, and has a Vas of 0.87 ft³. That seems workable.
The Dayton 4" full range has a flatter and deeper frequency response, and is available in 4 ohm or 8 ohm.
Dayton Audio RS100-8 4" Reference Full-Range Driver 295-352
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-352s.pdf
Notice in the PDF file, the response is flatter than the 3" model, and response goes down to 100hz, though it would be wise to cross higher than that.
The 3" and 4" Tang Bands, and a few others, are going to be very similar in response and depth. You could put two 8 ohms, or you could put four 4 ohms in a box. The output would be about the same, but the four 4 ohms in series will have less excursion, less distortion, and more power handling ability.
Again, your design concept looks really cool, and I'm sure it would sound good. I'm just not sure it is necessary to achieve the goal. Still, what is necessary is not always what is desired. I don't need a BMW, but I sure do desire one.
I'm simply providing an alternative view on the subject.
Just a few thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
Also, have you thought about how you will driver the Sound Bar. With an AV amp? With a Stereo?
Do you have a way to blend a single low-bass from two stereo channels?
If with an AV amp, then the low-bass will need its own amp, as most AV amps only have line level out to the Subwoofer.
There are transformers that will allow you to blend both left and right channels into a single mono channel for the Low-Bass, and there are dual voice coil woofers that would allow you to connect one voice coil to each amp channel.
The Dayton DVC (Dual Voice Coil) 8" is rated down to 31 hz, and has a Vas of 1.35 ft³. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, it has TWO 4 ohm voice coils. It would be better to find a DVC driver with two 8 ohm voice coils.
Dayton Audio SD215A-88 8" DVC Subwoofer 295-484
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-484s.pdf
I'm not sure on the impedance of the individual voice coils, with reference to the speaker, it simply say Impedance = 4 ohms, which is not helpful.
Just a few more thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
Do you have a way to blend a single low-bass from two stereo channels?
If with an AV amp, then the low-bass will need its own amp, as most AV amps only have line level out to the Subwoofer.
There are transformers that will allow you to blend both left and right channels into a single mono channel for the Low-Bass, and there are dual voice coil woofers that would allow you to connect one voice coil to each amp channel.
The Dayton DVC (Dual Voice Coil) 8" is rated down to 31 hz, and has a Vas of 1.35 ft³. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, it has TWO 4 ohm voice coils. It would be better to find a DVC driver with two 8 ohm voice coils.
Dayton Audio SD215A-88 8" DVC Subwoofer 295-484
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-484s.pdf
I'm not sure on the impedance of the individual voice coils, with reference to the speaker, it simply say Impedance = 4 ohms, which is not helpful.
Just a few more thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
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Sorry to keep posting, but here are Stereo to Mono Speaker Transformers -
Audioplex Technology 72W Stereo-to-Mono Mixer | MONOMIXER 200 | Audioplex Technology
Audioplex Technology 100W Stereo-to-Mono Mixer | MONOMIXER 300 | Audioplex Technology
Just to establish that such a device does indeed exist.
Steve/bluewizard
Audioplex Technology 72W Stereo-to-Mono Mixer | MONOMIXER 200 | Audioplex Technology
Audioplex Technology 100W Stereo-to-Mono Mixer | MONOMIXER 300 | Audioplex Technology
Just to establish that such a device does indeed exist.
Steve/bluewizard
One last point, then I will go away (at least for a while). I see no need for PRO class drivers with the acompanying benefits. One assume this is for the average living room, and not auditorium, so the ultra-high power and the high efficiency are (more or less) wasted.
There are many normal HiFi woofers that are more than up to the job -
Two in point -
Dayton Audio DC200-8 8" Classic Woofer 295-310
Dayton Audio DC160-4 6-1/2" Classic Woofer Speaker 295-309
Though certainly not limited to those two.
These are more than adequate with any standard amp in any standard room at any reasonable and likely in home volume levels. Plus they have reasonable cabinet size requirements and better low end response.
Which reminds me again, what AMP will you be using with these speakers? Or, were you planning to build amps into the speakers? If so, what were you planning to use to drive the internal amps?
Also, how high can you realistically raise the TV before the viewing angle becomes uncomfortable. With 6.5" Mid-Bass drivers and a down firing Low-Bass. I'm guess that is about an 8.5" rise (7.5" cabinet + 1" rise for the Low-Bass gap). Is that OK? Best to know before you build it.
One last point - Sealed Cabinet or Bass Reflex? If Bass Reflex, where are the ports? If on the back, how close to the back wall (the wall behind the speaker) will this cabinet have to be, and how compatible is that with rear ports?
That all for now, sorry to ramble on so much.
Steve/bluewizard
There are many normal HiFi woofers that are more than up to the job -
Two in point -
Dayton Audio DC200-8 8" Classic Woofer 295-310
Dayton Audio DC160-4 6-1/2" Classic Woofer Speaker 295-309
Though certainly not limited to those two.
These are more than adequate with any standard amp in any standard room at any reasonable and likely in home volume levels. Plus they have reasonable cabinet size requirements and better low end response.
Which reminds me again, what AMP will you be using with these speakers? Or, were you planning to build amps into the speakers? If so, what were you planning to use to drive the internal amps?
Also, how high can you realistically raise the TV before the viewing angle becomes uncomfortable. With 6.5" Mid-Bass drivers and a down firing Low-Bass. I'm guess that is about an 8.5" rise (7.5" cabinet + 1" rise for the Low-Bass gap). Is that OK? Best to know before you build it.
One last point - Sealed Cabinet or Bass Reflex? If Bass Reflex, where are the ports? If on the back, how close to the back wall (the wall behind the speaker) will this cabinet have to be, and how compatible is that with rear ports?
That all for now, sorry to ramble on so much.
Steve/bluewizard
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Thanks for all the ideas.
I had many of the same ones at different points.
I've got the 6" verson of the DVC woofer and it's nice.
I've got the 4" version of the dayton full range, nice speaker.
As well as using a transformer to combine 2 channnels to 1. I have always found they soften the sound. So I use resistors, 10k-20k, not perfect either.
And those woofers you listed will all go lower, some in smaller boxes. In this case less deep bass is better for the neighbors. Loud at any HZ can be bothersome to next door. Of course he'd like to play it very loud at times, too.
One of the goals was to have this sound bar/pedestal be over 90db efficient and dynamic. In my limited experience more efficient drivers sound clearer and dynamic at every level (low distortion?), pro drivers even more.
The 2 black dots in between the 6" drivers are the forward facing ports.
The woofer Dayton Audio PA200-8 8" Pro Woofer Speaker 295-025 box can be made to be 1.1 cu/ft which gets it down to 48hz which is low enough. Maybe too low.
The cabinet as it is now is 8" high. About 9" with feet. He'll decide if its right when I present this to him.
The stereo and bass amp are undecided for now. Probably class D amps of some type.
Thanks for your alternative view.
Here's a quick view of the idea of the 8" sound bar pedestal with a TV on it with a grill cloth
I had many of the same ones at different points.
I've got the 6" verson of the DVC woofer and it's nice.
I've got the 4" version of the dayton full range, nice speaker.
As well as using a transformer to combine 2 channnels to 1. I have always found they soften the sound. So I use resistors, 10k-20k, not perfect either.
And those woofers you listed will all go lower, some in smaller boxes. In this case less deep bass is better for the neighbors. Loud at any HZ can be bothersome to next door. Of course he'd like to play it very loud at times, too.
One of the goals was to have this sound bar/pedestal be over 90db efficient and dynamic. In my limited experience more efficient drivers sound clearer and dynamic at every level (low distortion?), pro drivers even more.
The 2 black dots in between the 6" drivers are the forward facing ports.
The woofer Dayton Audio PA200-8 8" Pro Woofer Speaker 295-025 box can be made to be 1.1 cu/ft which gets it down to 48hz which is low enough. Maybe too low.
The cabinet as it is now is 8" high. About 9" with feet. He'll decide if its right when I present this to him.
The stereo and bass amp are undecided for now. Probably class D amps of some type.
Thanks for your alternative view.
Here's a quick view of the idea of the 8" sound bar pedestal with a TV on it with a grill cloth
Curious, what is the height of the stand that the TV is on; the Credenza?
Standard Desktop high is 30", making the bass of the TV at about 38" or 39", then about 16.5" to the center of the TV (using my own TV as an example). That paced the center of the TV at (38" + 16.5" =) 54.5". That probably no worse than many wall mounted TVs.
But again, that starts with the assumption that the Credenza is 30" Floor to Top.
I still think you can do better in a standard HiFi woofer. I'm not convinced you are getting anything you can actually use from a PRO class woofer. Yes, you are getting something, I'm just not sure it is something you want or need.
Still, it is your money.
I like the look of your design ... really cool. I'm just not sure it is necessary.
Still, it is your money.
Steve/bluewizard
Standard Desktop high is 30", making the bass of the TV at about 38" or 39", then about 16.5" to the center of the TV (using my own TV as an example). That paced the center of the TV at (38" + 16.5" =) 54.5". That probably no worse than many wall mounted TVs.
But again, that starts with the assumption that the Credenza is 30" Floor to Top.
I still think you can do better in a standard HiFi woofer. I'm not convinced you are getting anything you can actually use from a PRO class woofer. Yes, you are getting something, I'm just not sure it is something you want or need.
Still, it is your money.
I like the look of your design ... really cool. I'm just not sure it is necessary.
Still, it is your money.
Steve/bluewizard
He stacked a few Kindles, er, books under his TV raising it 9-10". He's OK with it. I suggested cutting the legs off the credenza as a possibility to keep the height the same. He didn't laugh.
I may end up going with the 8" woofer you suggest if its getting too expensive for him.
This design is not necessary. Getting a crappy sound bar/pedestal at Best Buy is always a choice. As is using the TV's original speakers.
There are endless ways and variations to create this project.
Next up is to do some basic xover work.
Now its gotten smaller again.
Using the EOS 6 and DNA 150
Mid is Dayton Audio PA130-8 5" Full Range PA Driver
Sub is Dayton Audio SD215A-88 8" DVC Subwoofer
Xover for mid and eos6 will be around 2300hz. Wavelength is 5.9" which should be a good transition from 5" mid to 6.5"x5.25" eos6.
Size is 31"w x 6.3"h x 16"d. I'm building it now.
Enclosure for Mid will rolloff the low end around 150hz
Sub enclosure is 1cu/ft with a 2" x 11" port should go down to 35-40hz.
Using 4x100W @ 4 Ohm TK2050 Class-T Digital Audio Amplifier Board and 24vdc 12A power supply.
It gives around 30 low distortion watts. 100 watts is at 10% distortion. I will lower the mid and eos6 levels at the amp input to match sub.
Using the EOS 6 and DNA 150
Mid is Dayton Audio PA130-8 5" Full Range PA Driver
Sub is Dayton Audio SD215A-88 8" DVC Subwoofer
Xover for mid and eos6 will be around 2300hz. Wavelength is 5.9" which should be a good transition from 5" mid to 6.5"x5.25" eos6.
Size is 31"w x 6.3"h x 16"d. I'm building it now.
Enclosure for Mid will rolloff the low end around 150hz
Sub enclosure is 1cu/ft with a 2" x 11" port should go down to 35-40hz.
Using 4x100W @ 4 Ohm TK2050 Class-T Digital Audio Amplifier Board and 24vdc 12A power supply.
It gives around 30 low distortion watts. 100 watts is at 10% distortion. I will lower the mid and eos6 levels at the amp input to match sub.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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