Right, so make sure that any "container" you are pointing your sound generator into has as little parallel surface as possible especially at the throat or it will make resonance due to standing waves. Adolph Sax 1887 I think.... dude used a cone didn't like those "HOMs" in straight bore horns.
Older Things...
Computers = better crossovers.
Better drivers = more headroom, therefore can handle low end on shallow conical horns OK.
Conical horns = no parallel horn walls to set up standing waves (yeah HF standing waves generated at throat too, we get it, khorn owner always got it, felt etc)
Common sense = quick and smooth transition from "pipe"mouth to conical "horn" We will call that "quadratic" common sense.
A given..there sure are some really nice two way speakers around especially those Geddes speakers, man if I were looking for a two way......
Newer things.....
Synergy horns, comparing them to all other speakers especially those like Dunlavys which can sort of produce a square wave (just for fun of course as we all know... music ...not square wave..not relavent...yada... etc. etc ) Some of us are just silly about that, let's call that a given too.
Computers = better crossovers.
Better drivers = more headroom, therefore can handle low end on shallow conical horns OK.
Conical horns = no parallel horn walls to set up standing waves (yeah HF standing waves generated at throat too, we get it, khorn owner always got it, felt etc)
Common sense = quick and smooth transition from "pipe"mouth to conical "horn" We will call that "quadratic" common sense.
A given..there sure are some really nice two way speakers around especially those Geddes speakers, man if I were looking for a two way......
Newer things.....
Synergy horns, comparing them to all other speakers especially those like Dunlavys which can sort of produce a square wave (just for fun of course as we all know... music ...not square wave..not relavent...yada... etc. etc ) Some of us are just silly about that, let's call that a given too.
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Sure, but I don't think it's slight. Even my brother-in-law owns JBL home speakers with horn tweeters. And I think the sound of the Gedlee speakers is more in line with typical good Hi-Fi than the Synergy. Whatever type of driver is used, I hear a certain style of sound at Hi-Fi shows. Neither the Gedlee nor the Synergy fit comfortably into that style, but the Gedlee more so. To me, the SH-50 sounds much bigger an less strained than typical Hi-Fi - it's a different style of sound. The Abbeys are certainly cleaner and more dynamic than most speakers, but somehow closer to what is used in home systems.
I really don't understand how mastering engineers manage their craft. The variety of speakers in the real world is amazing. How do you master to that?
Pano ^ many of us do it (mastering) with a disgustingly "average" but wide range and flat/revealing sort of speaker with real attention to the midrange "voila the disgustingly average but completely reliable B&W 801" in as "normal" of a listening room as average as possible, coupled with too many years of getting tricked by our own years and knowing where the pitfalls are, not getting caught in them, hours of reference listening to similar known entity mixes, and some very good recent software tools, (and another tool, ummm well.... "Toole") His works should be first reading in every audio engineering school. I understand that is not the case.
Mostly you learn by getting your butt whipped till you can't handle the sting anymore and that means... No tolerating BS from anyone, any speaker, any room and most of all that lying sob in the mirror that would love you to believe you know more than you do. Kick his butt first, and oh yeah, kick it again daily when he tries to tell you that you are "good" then you might have a chance to get things right. Do all this while retaining your confidence too...Bwhaaaaaaaa
(Oh yeah and loud average listening levels in cars are changing the rules as we speak)
Mostly you learn by getting your butt whipped till you can't handle the sting anymore and that means... No tolerating BS from anyone, any speaker, any room and most of all that lying sob in the mirror that would love you to believe you know more than you do. Kick his butt first, and oh yeah, kick it again daily when he tries to tell you that you are "good" then you might have a chance to get things right. Do all this while retaining your confidence too...Bwhaaaaaaaa
(Oh yeah and loud average listening levels in cars are changing the rules as we speak)
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Hi SpeakerScott,
Thanks a lot for responding! From just looking at the photos it was my impression too, that the transition from the circular exit of the compression driver and the rectangular throat of the conical horn was not smooted out. IF, that is the case, then it sort of surprises me for an otherwise so well thought out design! But maybe there is a good reason for that!?
Best regards
Peter
Thanks a lot for responding! From just looking at the photos it was my impression too, that the transition from the circular exit of the compression driver and the rectangular throat of the conical horn was not smooted out. IF, that is the case, then it sort of surprises me for an otherwise so well thought out design! But maybe there is a good reason for that!?
Best regards
Peter
one problem with the throat smooting
it 'consumes' a certain space or length
and its beginning to interferes with the place where you want your mid driver
and distance to mid pass holes should be measured from acoustic centre of CD
(not sure where exactly that is ?)
but its beginning to look even more tricky
I am proud of my accomplishments - you have a problem with that?!
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I tested designs with and without, and found the response to be a bit smoother with smoothing. (hmmm...I couldn't figure out a better way to word that). I'm guessing it's not done in the commercial pro-sound versions because....it's not needed in the pro-sound versions and it is quite labor intensive. I spent many hours sanding/filing/bondoing...etc....
Scott
Hi SpeakerScott,
Thanks for replying! Well, I would assume that smooting out the transition would be both measurable and make a subjective difference.
It would still be nice to hear from some of the guys that have actually seen the SH-50's whether any precautions have been made regarding the transition. And it would be especially interesting to hear Tom Danley's thoughts. I'm pretty sure he has investigated the issue thoroughly.
Best regards
Peter
Thanks for replying! Well, I would assume that smooting out the transition would be both measurable and make a subjective difference.
It would still be nice to hear from some of the guys that have actually seen the SH-50's whether any precautions have been made regarding the transition. And it would be especially interesting to hear Tom Danley's thoughts. I'm pretty sure he has investigated the issue thoroughly.
Best regards
Peter
Just had a faceslapping moment. I now realize that Synergy speakers are potentially and a vastly IMPROVED "Dunlavy SC" WMTMW type speaker! Thinking about this, they are sort of a "3 dimensional" non directional WMTMW!! Ok duh, I get it now! A sort of "point source" WMTMW SC-IV, I never thought of it that way, at least not in the front of my mind.
Were this hifi Synergy to be realized, it has the potential of being a mastering speaker sans phase and having less individual unpredictable and chaotic room issues. Also, if I am getting this right, it would be eminently EQable per room as well? Better mastering speakers mean better recordings in general no matter what speakers we ultimately play back on.
This means that in the right hands better masters in general are a possibility and therefore better sound from all of our speakers. Reading a lot of the following thread today gave me the rest of the clues. This thread, makes me understand just how much there is going on here and how patient some of the responders to this ^ thread really are. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88237-suitable-midrange-cone-bandpass-mid-unity-horn.html
Were this hifi Synergy to be realized, it has the potential of being a mastering speaker sans phase and having less individual unpredictable and chaotic room issues. Also, if I am getting this right, it would be eminently EQable per room as well? Better mastering speakers mean better recordings in general no matter what speakers we ultimately play back on.
This means that in the right hands better masters in general are a possibility and therefore better sound from all of our speakers. Reading a lot of the following thread today gave me the rest of the clues. This thread, makes me understand just how much there is going on here and how patient some of the responders to this ^ thread really are. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88237-suitable-midrange-cone-bandpass-mid-unity-horn.html
They don't
With the variety of speakers (and rooms) out there it's not hard to be in the ballbark.Though not mastering studios, we all know this one:
(Source: Audio Musings by Sean Olive: Audio's Circle of Confusion)
And then there's the movie industry which is so proud of their "standards":
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^
Source of the graphs showing dubbing stages and cinemas: http://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=392
Source of the graphs showing dubbing stages and cinemas: http://www.aes.org/technical/documentDownloads.cfm?docID=392
I know everyone gets upset when Geddes promotes his ideas or products, so here's an anecdotal example of what he's referring to.
A few months ago I was at a conference for work. There was a speaker at the front of the room, and I was seated near them. I listened for about 40 minutes, then headed for the exits.
As I walked toward the exit, I literally had to stop dead in my tracks. The loudspeakers in the room were virtually indistinguishable from the person who I'd been listening to.
This was remarkable, because getting the human voice right is SO DIFFICULT. But the loudspeakers were just hitting a home run, in all of the areas that matter. The intelligibility was excellent, the sound was natural, and it didn't change as I walked across the room.
And this wasn't some critical listening session - this was something I picked up on as I literally walked toward the exit of the auditorium. The difference was noticeable in a matter of milliseconds.
Most impressive was the dynamics; the human voice can hit very loud peaks in the midrange, and these peaks are where most loudspeakers fall flat. I generally find that conventional loudspeakers compress the midrange, and prosound speakers have an audible coloration which is likely HOMs.
The loudspeakers at this computer conference suffered from neither.
I took a close look at the loudspeaker, and what do you know, it was basically a two-way that's VERY similar to a Geddes design.
This is what I was hearing that day:
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And this is the Geddes equivalent:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Methinks the QSC waveguides were clearly inspired by the various Geddes speakers and papers.
..it was just nice occasion for some cheap-shots (a couple of which were hilarious).
(..besides, "tooting your own horn" usually fails to impress - it's a matter of tact, made worse by the fact that it's in a potential competitors thread.) As a historical note, I tend to think of Genelec as being (by far) the most influential "source" with respect to the "rise" of directivity control and lowered diffraction. Not just because they were doing it earlier, but because they've become something of a reference in the pro world, with examples like Behringer "saying": I can do it for less.
Copy of a Geddes design, or copy of a Genelec design?
GENELEC - they are the "reference".
I also think none of the market expansion in "waveguides" (or speakers with them), would have occurred without the manufacturing process of injection molded plastics. More than anything, that's likely *the* major factor in their more wide-spread use today.
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