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Old 26th September 2013, 08:21 AM   #371
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I meant is diffraction ripple significant inside a horn like this outside of "tweeter" range?.
Quote:
Originally Posted by peteleoni View Post
? Is ripple important outside of VHF bands? or is it already vastly tamed or excluded by the very nature of this "mechanical crossover"?
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Old 26th September 2013, 08:46 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I'm about 75% sure that I'm going to change my current Synergy horn project*, due to a couple problems I've had with my horns:

1) With my Unity horn projects, I've had an issue where the soundstage is basically bounded by the horn. (Note that all of my Unity horns have been in my car.) Andy Wehmeyer, formerly of JBL, described the sound of Mark Eldridge's 4Runner like this**, and my car had the same problem:

"The least reflective car I've ever heard was Mark's 4-runner. The only glass remaining in the car was the windshield and the door glass. Everything else had been covered with thick panels with grille material covering thick insulating and absorbing materials. The speakers were mounted in the bottom of the car and in some giant horn thingys under the dash. All of that minimized reflections from the front glass.

The sound? It as very accurate sounding--like a pair of great headphones but phones in which the sound comes from in front of you rather than from inside your head. It was cool, but definitely missed the sense of space required for me to find the sound interesting. It played loud and was really dynamic without any vibration."
My thoughts?

Don't control reflections from a great speaker like that at all! For listening purposes? Instead create them! Go with your Synergy/headphone type design don't change a thing. Do this: Get another tiny set of full range speakers, (i.e minimus 7 et al) bandpass the living crap ( yes a very steep hump all middle) out of them and place them *behind* your Synergies facing into into the walls. Drive them (through separate cheap amp) with same signal or digital room sim and mix them in at only a few percent to taste.

Think I'm kidding? I'm not. Surround sound "reverb" sounds goofy as hell because of where it originates, this does not sound goofy at all, vastly natural in fact.
In fact, it is an improvement of what we already do in the studio, only we have to do it in the same dimension (same speakers) and you would be amazed at how much band passing is actually needed, I'm not even going to tell you, because a guy with your 'skillz" will figure it out very, very fast. the bose 901 crap had it backwards, the reverb tanks from decades past had it wrong, surround sound has it wrong now. I'm not guessing this I know it.
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Last edited by peteleoni; 26th September 2013 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 26th September 2013, 01:09 PM   #373
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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Synergy horns are still on my list of things I'd like to try building. I've found a few threads around the 'butts, but if anyone has any specific recommendations, that'd be awesome.

I would love to own enough SH-50s to cover all the channels in my theater, but they're just not in the budget, unless Tom has a sudden stroke of philanthropy

Thread's been a great read so far.
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Old 26th September 2013, 02:27 PM   #374
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteleoni View Post
Ripple caused by diffraction is going to be extremely complex ...
That and it is a three dimensional problem so it cannot be corrected at all by a one dimensional solution like EQ in a global sense.

It can take a very high resolution polar map to see diffraction effects - smoothing can obliterate them completely.
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Old 26th September 2013, 08:02 PM   #375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteleoni View Post
My thoughts?

Don't control reflections from a great speaker like that at all! For listening purposes? Instead create them! Go with your Synergy/headphone type design don't change a thing. Do this: Get another tiny set of full range speakers, (i.e minimus 7 et al) bandpass the living crap ( yes a very steep hump all middle) out of them and place them *behind* your Synergies facing into into the walls. Drive them (through separate cheap amp) with same signal or digital room sim and mix them in at only a few percent to taste.

Think I'm kidding? I'm not. Surround sound "reverb" sounds goofy as hell because of where it originates, this does not sound goofy at all, vastly natural in fact.
In fact, it is an improvement of what we already do in the studio, only we have to do it in the same dimension (same speakers) and you would be amazed at how much band passing is actually needed, I'm not even going to tell you, because a guy with your 'skillz" will figure it out very, very fast. the bose 901 crap had it backwards, the reverb tanks from decades past had it wrong, surround sound has it wrong now. I'm not guessing this I know it.
This is very good.
One thing more, add a delay of about 12ms. to the reverb speakers.
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Old 15th November 2013, 04:08 PM   #376
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Did Tom Danley ever visit gedlee with his prototype hifi-tuned synergy horn?

I'm not so much interested in that event but very interested in the development of the speaker itself. Any updates on the home version Tom?
Thanks!
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Old 15th November 2013, 04:19 PM   #377
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Run the mids open baffle (open frame drivers without rear chamber) on the synergy and you get a nice effect too. It helps to have a high Qts driver.
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Old 15th November 2013, 06:40 PM   #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I know everyone gets upset when Geddes promotes his ideas or products, so here's an anecdotal example of what he's referring to.

A few months ago I was at a conference for work. There was a speaker at the front of the room, and I was seated near them. I listened for about 40 minutes, then headed for the exits.

As I walked toward the exit, I literally had to stop dead in my tracks. The loudspeakers in the room were virtually indistinguishable from the person who I'd been listening to.

This was remarkable, because getting the human voice right is SO DIFFICULT. But the loudspeakers were just hitting a home run, in all of the areas that matter. The intelligibility was excellent, the sound was natural, and it didn't change as I walked across the room.

And this wasn't some critical listening session - this was something I picked up on as I literally walked toward the exit of the auditorium. The difference was noticeable in a matter of milliseconds.

Most impressive was the dynamics; the human voice can hit very loud peaks in the midrange, and these peaks are where most loudspeakers fall flat. I generally find that conventional loudspeakers compress the midrange, and prosound speakers have an audible coloration which is likely HOMs.

The loudspeakers at this computer conference suffered from neither.

I took a close look at the loudspeaker, and what do you know, it was basically a two-way that's VERY similar to a Geddes design.

This is what I was hearing that day:
Click the image to open in full size.

And this is the Geddes equivalent:
Click the image to open in full size.

Methinks the QSC waveguides were clearly inspired by the various Geddes speakers and papers.
Its the simplicity in the speaker, and without the muck from a recording chain. Mind you try some really dynamic stuff with mid treble transients.

The Behringer speakers score for the same reason but at home listening to at least the Behringers I did not like the sound. Rebuilt with better tweeter mid and suddenly pleasant to listen to. I dont know how good the Summas are but opinion is that they are very good with their selected drivers wave guide etc

Last edited by boldname; 15th November 2013 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 15th November 2013, 07:10 PM   #379
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That design (Geddes, compression, big horn,) has no choice but to sound good unless the filters were messed up, and I highly doubt it (-:
Quote:
Originally Posted by boldname View Post
Its the simplicity in the speaker, and without the muck from a recording chain. Mind you try some really dynamic stuff with mid treble transients.

The Behringer speakers scomre for the same reason but at home listening to at least the Behringers I did not like the sound. Rebuilt with better tweeter mid and suddenly pleasant to listen to. I dont know how good the Summas are but opinion is that they are very good with their selected drivers wave guide etc
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Last edited by peteleoni; 15th November 2013 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 15th November 2013, 07:49 PM   #380
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peteleoni View Post
That design (Geddes, compression, big horn,) has no choice but to sound good
I have heard some system with a big horn and big woofer that were simply awful, so I don't think that one can assume that combination will always be great.
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