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Old 9th September 2013, 02:33 AM   #101
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Scott I donít think you understand at all actually
I am not advocating using sTIpa measurements rather, the root of them is the MTF measurement which is a measure of resolution or depth of modulation, just like it is in optics an MTF is an indicator of resolution.
One can take an MTF measurement alone too at a frequency of your choosing which is what I am talking about.

Just like with optics, as you corrupt the signal, you reduce the modulation depth and resolution.
If you look at a Cumulative Burst Decay waterfall, you can also see the late stuff that reduces modulation depth.

If you wish to believe that reducing the modulation depth is required or better subjectively than how the signal starts out thatís fine because our argument is over, but consider that NO other part of the chain ďgets more faithful to the signalĒ by reducing its resolution, period.
Tom
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Old 9th September 2013, 02:50 AM   #102
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Repeat after me,
You can control the speaker you can't control every room it's used in therefore...You can control the speaker you can't control every room it's used in therefore...You can control the speaker you can't control every room it's used in therefore...You can control the speaker you can't control every room it's used in therefore...
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Old 9th September 2013, 05:18 AM   #103
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post
Scott I donít think you understand at all actually
I am not advocating using sTIpa measurements rather, the root of them is the MTF measurement which is a measure of resolution or depth of modulation, just like it is in optics an MTF is an indicator of resolution.
One can take an MTF measurement alone too at a frequency of your choosing which is what I am talking about..


Tom

Hi Tom,


Actually I meant that understood your premise of a corrupted signal - that I understood what you were arguing for, but not in context with STIpa.


Graci! That's the tie-in I was missing.


Please note: I read your post and never really got that at all - after several readings.

Post 60:

Synergy Horns. No drawbacks, no issues?


It starts with STIpa, makes comparisons, but doesn't mention MFT until much further down. Honestly, to me it appears as if you are making an argument with regard to Intelligibility and the STIpa as a measure of that - with a contextual carry-over from commercial sound to a domestic setting.

Once you do mention MFT, it really appears to be a "build-up" for STIpa.. MFT link first, STIpa link next.

Combine that with the prior statements on STIpa pretty much reads like support for STIpa's use (or bastardization).




It's why I responded in 3 parts originally:

Synergy Horns. No drawbacks, no issues?


I should have just made the 1st response.. but I didn't know that.

-just "running down a rabbit hole" on intelligibility.

(..you do get the irony of that, right?)
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Old 9th September 2013, 05:54 AM   #104
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Going to go out on a limb and say that vocal illegibility probably has everything to do with this. (-: It's funny but PWK used to say: It's easy to test a room, have someone talk in it. Not far to go from there to "the speaker should not light up the room any more than it has to" Wishing that guy was still around. Like to say hello.
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Old 9th September 2013, 06:15 AM   #105
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by peteleoni View Post
Going to go out on a limb and say that vocal illegibility probably has everything to do with this.
..oh, I'm getting to that.
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Old 9th September 2013, 06:22 AM   #106
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post
Scott..

..Just like with optics, as you corrupt the signal, you reduce the modulation depth and resolution.

If you look at a Cumulative Burst Decay waterfall, you can also see the late stuff that reduces modulation depth.

If you wish to believe that reducing the modulation depth is required or better subjectively than how the signal starts out that’s fine because our argument is over, but consider that NO other part of the chain “gets more faithful to the signal” by reducing its resolution, period.

Tom

Hi Tom, (again)


Lets go through a logic sequence based on information I've already provided:


1. Reflections add-in as a noise floor (or the "late stuff" on a room CSD).

2. The noise floor caused by reflections reduces the modulation depth from direct sound.

3. Direct sound has the quality expressed as Intelligibility.

4. Intelligibility specifically references the ability to understand the content of that direct sound (particularly with respect to dialog).

5. The improved ability to understand direct sound (dialog) is by all reasonable use of the word: a particular "measure" of resolution. (..ie. are you more able to resolve the dialog from the loudspeaker, or less?)

6. Intelligibility is improved with reflections (..within a time window common to the small room context). *A well observed/studied fact*.

7. Resolution (of Intelligibility) is improved with an increased noise floor (to an extent common enough in a small room acoustic).

8. When the modulation depth is *lowered* (by reflections and their increased noise floor), resolution (of Intelligibility) is increased.

-period.



..and there are many other examples as well.

In the context of the recording itself reverberation (NOISE) is used all the time to set-back images giving it's location a higher degree of accuracy in the depth plane, both location and character. Without it you'd have images "riding on top" of each other unless they were each lateralized in a stable "line".

..how about dither? (..and not simply in the context of audio.)
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Last edited by ScottG; 9th September 2013 at 06:28 AM.
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Old 9th September 2013, 08:00 AM   #107
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6. Intelligibility is improved with reflections (..within a time window common to the small room context).

You leave out one thing. Tom's designs are not doing away with reflections, but minimizing them. I can't think of any source short of headphones (that many find preferable to speakers BTW) that doesn't already have more reflections than we need. And that is the whole ball of wax. It's not that these speakers would eliminate reflections at all, just reduce them and that can only help in the vast majority of rooms. I have decades of empirical dealing with this to rely on I'm not just pooping it out.
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Old 9th September 2013, 08:04 AM   #108
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Oh yeah, lets put the icing on the cake here. If you want the best vocal intelligibility, put on headphones to eliminate room reflections. Like the FBI does when they want to hear who's getting whacked Bwahaaahaaa !!!!!
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Old 9th September 2013, 08:28 AM   #109
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
6. Intelligibility is improved with reflections (..within a time window common to the small room context). *A well observed/studied fact*.
Is this to say that early reflections will help cut through an otherwise crowded room based noise floor as this sounds like a compromise of sorts. I believe that reducing early reflections is good for intelligibility, at least when the 'bigger picture' is being addressed.
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Old 9th September 2013, 08:47 AM   #110
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I think the key issue here concerning reflections is that they are already built into the recording, except of course for line in electronic sources. When you hear someone speak into a mic, you are already hearing the room about them. This effect increases exponentially with distance from the source. If humans and for that matter all acoustic sources had a "line out" well then we would need extra reflections from the room till then, minimising them when reproducing is probsably the next best bet (-:
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