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Old 25th July 2013, 02:17 PM   #1
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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Default for experts with caps in speaker filters

Hi,

happy owner of a pair of the fabulous american Boston Lynfield 400 L speaker for 15 years, I can't live with them anymore. They don't fail in transparency, soundstage but fails in life, juicy treble, they are like ghost: flesh is missing (the curve is very flat between 300 htz and 20 khz)
I find my little kef 104/2 with all its defaults to be more natural : more flesh and meat, a lively mid-bass fantastic with rock (more important for me than a boomy 35 htz in our Domus), a mid and treble that match good with wood and brass instruments (jazz and classic).

Well, the Lynfield are second hand, I open it one month ago and change the damages than the first owner done with changing most of the original MIT Wires with QED profil silver... Stupid because Qed doesn't match with the very clear aluminium mid and treble units of Boston Audio company.

the question is cooming soon. So Then i change the Qed with the white internal 2,5 mm Oyaide PCOCC-A, it's a honnest brand according to me, I'm happy with their 750 across (good Q/P) interlink. Speakers wires are the little first blue Cardas : honnest bass, lively, transparent, just a little too much klimbing treble but it's ok.

I want change the caps of the 4 order treble filter and some caps of the 2nd order mid. And maybe the industrial Colber cement resistors.

the question is : is it good to change a cement resistor with an non inductive wirewound one like a Mundorf Suprem resistor. The impedance is not the same when the frequency grow up between a cement and a wirewound (The Boston designer is famous, and maybe it's not by chance that he used cement in this top line speaker?) The cement one do better with reducing the impedance curve when the frequency grows and not the non inductives wirewound resistor ? true or false ?

For the caps. in the mid : after 2 x 4 homs // Colber cement resistors, I have Two Boston chimical caps (200 uf & 60 uF) in // with a little famous polystyren MULTICAP RTX of 0,1 uf/100V. All this folk give a transparent result but with a lake of life and meat (the mid goes 125 htz to 3,5 khtz). Is it good for example to change the 60 uf with a Mundorf Suprem (for flesh according for example Humble Homemade Hifi) or an ESA clarity caps which is known to be rounder than others brand ? Is it good to match chemical with mkp in // (resonances?) ? What about the little MIT caps ? (very neutral and transparent but without life... a cold side ?)

For the treble, it beginns with a 4 homs resistor// with an 1 uf Mylar yellow Efco CPM88/160 V (mylar because too little to be MKP, then 8 (boston Mylar +6 uf (Efco mylar) with a Multicap RTX, then an inductor to the minus, then 4,7 mylar + 2 uF MKP with a MIT RTX. Here I believe with first an 8 uF MKP Amphom aluminium (because I have already it) with maybe 4,7 something fleshier : Mundorf Suprem ? and for the second : 4,7 uF Mundorf Suprem or red jantzen superior Z cap and for the the 2 uf maybe clarity caps MR or true copper Audyn caps, for the RTX MIT0,& uf a benchamark with Mundorf a silver oil...

Any experiences with MKP caps for meatier and fleshier results without laking in natural and transparency (aluminium cones) and what about resistors : better cement or non inductive wirewound (I also think in a Kiwame for the treble)?

I can't try everything because of money, advises of seniors is needed please and sorry for the long post and description? I am a believer than wires and filter are the last 30% of the final result of a good speaker after the matching between box/charge/speaker units but the 99% chronophag and costly part of it...

regards

PS: one day when the money goes better I try the Stigerik way : activ with B&G and no box bass in two way design...

Eldam

Last edited by Eldam; 25th July 2013 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 25th July 2013, 07:06 PM   #2
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Money short,
I would change/test (upgrade) caps for the tweeter in first.
I would leave resistors if in order/not damaged. (posterior upgrade/more money)
I would check if there is a need for caps in the mid, because, they can give a drastic change in sound for better, or not.
At the same time I would pad the tweeter a little, if there's the need for it... that could be done with a new good quality n.i. resistor.
(Members would appreciate to see some picture of the crossover, if possible post the layout you mention.)
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Old 25th July 2013, 07:25 PM   #3
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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Thank you for your reply,

Two resistors of the mid are damaged during the change of the internal wires (legs broke in one of the mid filter) so I have to change it with the original cement Colber or same technology in an another brand or change technology with non Inductive or colored like Kiwame for example.
With your last point I can try to take the two Colber resistors of the tweeters (one in each tweeter filter) and rebuild the two resistor in the damaged mid filtezr and try another resistor for tweeter. these tweeter klimb to 30 K htz... my ears at 44 are nearer to 16 khtz...

Thanks for the advices of experienced fellow because i Know that you can move everything wuth a small change : you change the tweeter filter : bass can go fat, etc, etc. And I never play with filter...just read litterature

PS : I take photographs and draw a scheme, you are right.
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Old 25th July 2013, 08:15 PM   #4
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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sheme and photographs : the scheme is good some 0,1 uf rtx caps are missing in the photographas but are in every celluls (// and series)of the filters.
Only mistake on the sheme: in the last mid cellul between + & -, there is a MIT RTX 0,1 uF in // with the 10 UF (chemical Boston cap on the left on the third picture... only visible on the sheme)
brands are Boston, Efco and unknown (the 2 uF in the last treble cellul), resistors are industrial Colber cement in paper body.
Big mid caps are Boston chemical like trhe 10 uf near it between + & minus for the mid.
In the second photograph there is a missing MIT RTX 0,1 uF to show the valor of the 2 uF cap (mylar?)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Boston 400L filter sheme.jpg (932.8 KB, 189 views)
File Type: jpg tweeter caps.jpg (367.0 KB, 182 views)
File Type: jpg main mid filter200+60+0,1 uF.jpg (904.6 KB, 184 views)
File Type: jpg front of speaker.jpg (408.7 KB, 180 views)

Last edited by Eldam; 25th July 2013 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 26th July 2013, 02:45 AM   #5
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Changing brands and types of caps is only "icing on the cake" as the Anglophones like to say. You will get far greater results by changing the values of the caps. And that may be your problem. Of course you need some experience and maybe some measuring equipment to guide you, and that's not easy.

Do you know what the original values of the crossover were? If you do, that is the place to start. Rebuild with decent quality caps like Solen or Jantzen and hear were you are. From there, you can tune as you like.
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Old 26th July 2013, 11:24 AM   #6
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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Thank you for the input Pano,

The values are the originals. The first owner changed only the wires.
I m sad i believed caps was more than the 1% on the pudding.
I don t want to change the values choosed by the experienced designer.
Just change the quality of the caps...but if it s impossible to add flesh and meat with them...it s no go.
What about resistors?
Cheers
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Old 26th July 2013, 12:08 PM   #7
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Resistors produce minor distortions. Types mainly, more than brands. Where it is audible at all, the effect is often less noticeable than a capacitor with issues, maybe moreso than the difference between various good performing capacitors though.
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Old 26th July 2013, 12:47 PM   #8
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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Thank you Allen B,

So the originals broken Colber cement can be changed by cement dayton for example : it's almost equal and cost nothing in relation to a 20 more costly Mcap suprem resistor.

Is it a good idea to test Kiwame or Allen Bradley used in powersupply for a filter to introduce some decent (pleasent?) distorsions at the beginning of the filter (my sheme) ? minor change or could it warm the sound (Kiwame?).

Many mylar are used in the original speaker with bypass polystyren.
With the same values where coul be the major change (into the icing on the cake): changing the bypass 0,1 uF polystyren or the high value of the mylar caps (MKT) by decent MKP (jantzen, audyn cap, mundorf).

Mixing a MKP with an chemical in the mid = too much minor change (polish the icing on the pudding?) ? Bad idea?

The goal for me is not to buy one thousand dollars in caps.

Are the informations at Humblehomemadehifi just marketing for pushing the sells or buying by brands or serious informations ?
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Old 26th July 2013, 01:35 PM   #9
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Can anyone seriously explain me what the hell effect can cause in any audio system, to change a brand of one cap to another, or between cable brands, supposing similar ELECTRIC and MECHANICAL characteristics???

In both cases, if there is any audible difference is because you are using a bandpass filter in place of a capacitor or cable...
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Old 26th July 2013, 01:55 PM   #10
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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It's like human : same genome but not same clever or face !

Or with a picture analogy : Igazu falls and a small river are water but it's not the same shower... or the french wine and argentin wine (except Carmenere hmmm I like it we have not in france!)

try yourself, and you will see there are difference; experience is needed because the mathematical model (resistance, reactance, inductance, material loss, etc) are too complex to use for setting a speaker or an analogic stage for example. That's why i ask for experienced fellow in design speaker and filter their help... The analogy with the words : flesh, meat, clear, etc can help me if the experience of the good designers of DIYA say it's valid.... or not. I already know that there is a small difference (ice sugar on the cake theory= kirsh on the pudding in france)... but I know sometimes that this small difference can transform a material in something listenable (the signification of the ice sugar or kirsh on the cake : the little change give all the final taste and character of the product but if the cake is burn inside, the caps on the pudding don't save the cake for stomach problems!)

Last edited by Eldam; 26th July 2013 at 02:18 PM.
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