I’ll be building a pair of 3-way’s with active crossovers (for my living room), and am narrowing down my choices for the mid-range driver.
My criteria are that I want it to work well in a sealed enclosure, and am hoping to cross over at 300Hz and 3kHz (the bass driver is likely to be the SEAS D1001 L26ROY in a ported enclosure, I’ve not decided on a tweeter yet). Off axis is quite important as on some occasions it’ll be playing to the room, not just a sweet spot, so around 4” or 5” would seem best to reach 3kHz.
With my amps, I’ll be able to get 108dB@1m from the L26ROY; the choice of good small mids that will do that is a little limited, but there are a number that would do 105dB if I reduce my ambitions a bit. Having looked at all the specs and charts, my top-3 short list is:
SEAS MCA12RC H1304 (4”) - £41
Audax HM130C0 (5.25”) - £80
Morel EM428 (4”) - £100
All of them seem to fit my criteria and get reasonable reviews; has anyone got any strong preferences?
Thanks
Kev
My criteria are that I want it to work well in a sealed enclosure, and am hoping to cross over at 300Hz and 3kHz (the bass driver is likely to be the SEAS D1001 L26ROY in a ported enclosure, I’ve not decided on a tweeter yet). Off axis is quite important as on some occasions it’ll be playing to the room, not just a sweet spot, so around 4” or 5” would seem best to reach 3kHz.
With my amps, I’ll be able to get 108dB@1m from the L26ROY; the choice of good small mids that will do that is a little limited, but there are a number that would do 105dB if I reduce my ambitions a bit. Having looked at all the specs and charts, my top-3 short list is:
SEAS MCA12RC H1304 (4”) - £41
Audax HM130C0 (5.25”) - £80
Morel EM428 (4”) - £100
All of them seem to fit my criteria and get reasonable reviews; has anyone got any strong preferences?
Thanks
Kev
Since off axis is important to you, I would not go for the 5.25" Audax, but for one of the 4"-ers on a narrow baffle.
I don't have very good experiences with Morel, but I don't know this particular model. One thing to raise eyebrows is the oversized voice coil made out of aluminum. Think eddy currents.
All in all, the SEAS would be a good choice, and I wouldn't cross it over at 3Khz, but much lower with 4th order LR, which can easily be achieved with an electronic xover.
I don't have very good experiences with Morel, but I don't know this particular model. One thing to raise eyebrows is the oversized voice coil made out of aluminum. Think eddy currents.
All in all, the SEAS would be a good choice, and I wouldn't cross it over at 3Khz, but much lower with 4th order LR, which can easily be achieved with an electronic xover.
I haven't heard any of those drivers either but I have used the Audax HM100Z0 4" mid driver (92dB @1w/1m) in the past and had good results but you might need a steep slope at 300hz to have good power handling, they were temporarily taken of the diy market but are now available again from Madisound and audax speaker units from cadaudio.dk . cheers, Arthur.
Thanks everyone! So mixed feelings on the Morel EM428 then, which is interesting. The Audax HM130C0 sneaked onto my list because its response chart suggests its almost as good as the 4" ones off axis at 300Hz, but yes its not 'quite' as good and even with 4th order XO there'd be some higher frequency effects too, so it would need a reason to be chosen over the others.
Thanks for the suggestion of the Audax HM100Z0 afa, I'd not considered that one - its not high power handling but due to its high sensitivity (even after compensating for the 4ohms nominal) it certainly reaches the SPLs I wanted and in fact more. Though I see what you mean about needing a steep X-over; with an Fs of 250Hz its probably designed for a slightly higher range than i was looking for in this instance. Its getting very close to Xmax in my simulations, and the audax chart shows it starting to roll off above my XO point, which I'm not sure I have the experience to tackle with confidence - think I'd better play safer to begin with.
Cheers
Kev.
Thanks for the suggestion of the Audax HM100Z0 afa, I'd not considered that one - its not high power handling but due to its high sensitivity (even after compensating for the 4ohms nominal) it certainly reaches the SPLs I wanted and in fact more. Though I see what you mean about needing a steep X-over; with an Fs of 250Hz its probably designed for a slightly higher range than i was looking for in this instance. Its getting very close to Xmax in my simulations, and the audax chart shows it starting to roll off above my XO point, which I'm not sure I have the experience to tackle with confidence - think I'd better play safer to begin with.
Cheers
Kev.
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Many like the Scan Speak Discovery 10F 4" midrange for this reason.
The Seas Prestige FU10RB-08 4" fullrange is another top notch driver highly recommended.
Zaph has done tests and it behaves very nicely. It's 5th (4Ω) and 6th (8Ω) driver down.
The Seas Prestige FU10RB-08 4" fullrange is another top notch driver highly recommended.
Zaph has done tests and it behaves very nicely. It's 5th (4Ω) and 6th (8Ω) driver down.
Thanks chaps!
Jay, thanks for the suggestion, I'll have a go modelling the full rangees and see what they look like
Face, I've not chosen the tweeter yet; there seems to be a lot more choice with those, so I decided to look at the mid first and then try to find a tweeter to suit it.
Jay, yes thanks, it will certainly be a learning curve for me. Hopefully I'm keeping it as simple as possible by using active crossovers and not relying on the driver's roll-off, but even then I realise WinISD can only tell me so much.
So far then, it sounds like a vote both for and against the seas MCA12RC H1304, one for the Audax HM130C0 and two for the Morel EM428
Cheers
Kev
Jay, thanks for the suggestion, I'll have a go modelling the full rangees and see what they look like
Face, I've not chosen the tweeter yet; there seems to be a lot more choice with those, so I decided to look at the mid first and then try to find a tweeter to suit it.
Jay, yes thanks, it will certainly be a learning curve for me. Hopefully I'm keeping it as simple as possible by using active crossovers and not relying on the driver's roll-off, but even then I realise WinISD can only tell me so much.
So far then, it sounds like a vote both for and against the seas MCA12RC H1304, one for the Audax HM130C0 and two for the Morel EM428
Cheers
Kev
John 'Zaph' Krutke seems to think that Morel (and Dynaudio) use an inherently flawed design. Here are his comments on the HU531:
"Comments: This Morel driver almost looks alien from the back with a very unique frame and magnet mounting system. It has a huge 3" voice coil. The response is relatively smooth and extended, and the voice coil should remain cool under heavy usage, but that's pretty much it for the items on the good list. On the bad side is the harmonic distortion. Basically, it's terrible. Notice that the F5 is nearly as high as the F3... not good. While I was running the sweep, I noticed very high tall order spectrum noise. I have to wonder if we will ever see 3" and 4" inset magnet speakers with good motor designs. Currenly, not from Dynaudio, Hi-Vi or Morel. Tested May 2006."
"Comments: This Morel driver almost looks alien from the back with a very unique frame and magnet mounting system. It has a huge 3" voice coil. The response is relatively smooth and extended, and the voice coil should remain cool under heavy usage, but that's pretty much it for the items on the good list. On the bad side is the harmonic distortion. Basically, it's terrible. Notice that the F5 is nearly as high as the F3... not good. While I was running the sweep, I noticed very high tall order spectrum noise. I have to wonder if we will ever see 3" and 4" inset magnet speakers with good motor designs. Currenly, not from Dynaudio, Hi-Vi or Morel. Tested May 2006."
Most interesting, many thanks!! The morel was on my short list mostly because it seemed to have an unusually good off-axis response, but IIRC it does seem to start becoming rather less flat than the others almost immediately after my 3kHz cutoff.. I'll have to look at the F5, but from these comments (and the doubts expressed by vacuphile) I suspect it may not be the one for me; I'm looking for something reasonably safe and uncomplicated.
Thanks again,
Kev
Thanks again,
Kev
That doesn't sound good! Right, so I've now discounted the morel driver, leaving me with the seas (for which there seem to be mixed feelings) and the Audax - which is a little larger than optimum but probably still viable.
I had a SPL meter arrive today, so I can measure my existing system tonight for comparison; it may be that I'd be happy with less powerful/sensitive drivers and then my choices are wider.
(I investigated the 10F - it looks very nice so thanks for the recommendations. Though when I loaded the parameters into WinISD it doesn't achieve the kind of SPL that the others I was considering do. I'll have to decide if its going to be loud enough for me or not.)
Many thanks
Kev
I had a SPL meter arrive today, so I can measure my existing system tonight for comparison; it may be that I'd be happy with less powerful/sensitive drivers and then my choices are wider.
(I investigated the 10F - it looks very nice so thanks for the recommendations. Though when I loaded the parameters into WinISD it doesn't achieve the kind of SPL that the others I was considering do. I'll have to decide if its going to be loud enough for me or not.)
Many thanks
Kev
Lower effeciency was one of the issues I had with my design (not finished yet). I'm not using any of these drivers (cost), but will say that 87 can be a bit of a pinch. Going to an MTM this would rise to 90 but doubling the cost todo.
What listening level are you looking for @ what distance? From this we should get a better match to your needs. Small high effeciency drivers are hard to find with enough Xmax, perhaps a Faital Pro 4FE32. Odd I find it harder to find something today than what seemed to be more available 20 years ago. The industry must love backtracking for the more common flavor of the week variety. Must be a trending thing, marketing hype and all that poo.
What listening level are you looking for @ what distance? From this we should get a better match to your needs. Small high effeciency drivers are hard to find with enough Xmax, perhaps a Faital Pro 4FE32. Odd I find it harder to find something today than what seemed to be more available 20 years ago. The industry must love backtracking for the more common flavor of the week variety. Must be a trending thing, marketing hype and all that poo.
Whenever morel is mentioned zaph's distortion measurements always seem to come up, I think that they are probably responsible for a lot of people not using morel drivers. If I'd read those comments before I purchased my units I probably wouldn't have either.
I'd love to see some correlations between thpose measurements and subjective listening impressions of speakers using the same drivers (tested against other drivers in a double blind environment). It would be very interesting to see the results
Perhaps the distortion is a tradeoff required for something else the drivers do well... just a thought. I have nothing other than my own subjective experience to base this on, but I certainly don't find myself thinking oh my I really can't stand that 5th harmonic
Attached is an in room measurement of my MTM's no gating showing 2nd through 5th harmonic. As it is in room and not gated (1/12 octave smoothed) it should probably be taken with a big grain of salt, a gated measurement would probably be better. The room is pretty bad acoustically the biggest issue around the 50 - 150 Hz mark. I have no idea if this is bad, good or indifferent from a distortion pov, but apart from some reflection problems I think that they sound quite fine crossover point is at 2.8K
Tony.
I'd love to see some correlations between thpose measurements and subjective listening impressions of speakers using the same drivers (tested against other drivers in a double blind environment). It would be very interesting to see the results
Perhaps the distortion is a tradeoff required for something else the drivers do well... just a thought. I have nothing other than my own subjective experience to base this on, but I certainly don't find myself thinking oh my I really can't stand that 5th harmonic
Attached is an in room measurement of my MTM's no gating showing 2nd through 5th harmonic. As it is in room and not gated (1/12 octave smoothed) it should probably be taken with a big grain of salt, a gated measurement would probably be better. The room is pretty bad acoustically the biggest issue around the 50 - 150 Hz mark. I have no idea if this is bad, good or indifferent from a distortion pov, but apart from some reflection problems I think that they sound quite fine
crossover point is at 2.8KTony.
Attachments
Thanks Tony, nice to have it put into perspective. In a previous life I was involved in the human sciences and came to appreciate the differences between measurement and perception, so I can quite believe there are many things one wouldn't hear. And also many real-world environmental aspects which one would! Though I don't have the confidence/experience to necessarily know what yet, so I'm probably going to play it safe on this occasion.
Cheers
Kev
Cheers
Kev
not sure I would use the Seas ROY woofer
isn't it more a subwoofer with that big surround
I guess its best crossed much lower, and active
SB have a new 12" with low inductance...looks good
not sure about the size of midrange
I would think it depends more on construction
and IMO...I would try not to loose too much sensitivity
I like the small drivers, but power handling and sensitivity might be too low
distortion could be become a problem above moderate SPL
isn't it more a subwoofer with that big surround
I guess its best crossed much lower, and active
SB have a new 12" with low inductance...looks good
not sure about the size of midrange
I would think it depends more on construction
and IMO...I would try not to loose too much sensitivity
I like the small drivers, but power handling and sensitivity might be too low
distortion could be become a problem above moderate SPL
Thanks also Greebster. I had initially been looking for 85dB +20dB headroom = 105dB (though only at 1m, rather than at my listening position).
But looking at what the smaller mid drivers typically produce, and the alternative suggestions in this thread, I strongly suspect that I don't 'need' as much SPL as I think. So I bought a SPL meter and tonight will do some measurements to work out what I actually want - if its several dB less then my choices would be wider..
Cheers
Kev
But looking at what the smaller mid drivers typically produce, and the alternative suggestions in this thread, I strongly suspect that I don't 'need' as much SPL as I think. So I bought a SPL meter and tonight will do some measurements to work out what I actually want - if its several dB less then my choices would be wider..
Cheers
Kev
That all encompassing distortion peak @600Hz is something I'd be looking into, otherwise nothing else glaring at me. Well would like to see less 3rd between 1-2k, but doubt it would be detrimental to the listening experience.
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We need to see multimode distortion plots to sus out the qualitative aspects of drivers. Also minimal breakup out of band is important and is a quality I look for when choosing a driver. Most metal cone drivers epically fail at this. Sad too because what they do in band is so nice and often why they are choosen.
People think I'm wrong on this, but being true to my nature see it this way. If a drivers breakup even if subdued with a notch or filtered with a higher order crossover, the problem persists, tho doesn't show it's ugly face during tests. My take is that whenever a signals' amplitude rises at the rate in time that is equal to the frequency of the breakup it will cause distortion in the lower bands that are passed on to the listener. Only a very few metal cone drivers can pull this off well enough for my tastes. Good example of this would be a Tang Band W4-1337. Sadly another rule I have discounts it's use and that is a flat response beyond the natural roll off of a given diameter. Anything say more than an octave or so is a waste, unless you want to use it as a full range. In this case we're not tossing on a crossover or adding a tweeter, so everything is fine as long as you the listener is willing to accept beaming at the top.
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We need to see multimode distortion plots to sus out the qualitative aspects of drivers. Also minimal breakup out of band is important and is a quality I look for when choosing a driver. Most metal cone drivers epically fail at this. Sad too because what they do in band is so nice and often why they are choosen.
People think I'm wrong on this, but being true to my nature see it this way. If a drivers breakup even if subdued with a notch or filtered with a higher order crossover, the problem persists, tho doesn't show it's ugly face during tests. My take is that whenever a signals' amplitude rises at the rate in time that is equal to the frequency of the breakup it will cause distortion in the lower bands that are passed on to the listener. Only a very few metal cone drivers can pull this off well enough for my tastes. Good example of this would be a Tang Band W4-1337. Sadly another rule I have discounts it's use and that is a flat response beyond the natural roll off of a given diameter. Anything say more than an octave or so is a waste, unless you want to use it as a full range. In this case we're not tossing on a crossover or adding a tweeter, so everything is fine as long as you the listener is willing to accept beaming at the top.
Tinitus, thanks for the thoughts. I've not yet fully settled on the L26ROY, though I'm using it as a possible reference because people recomended it to me in some other threads as having unusually good response and little cone break-up until really quite high (for what it is); I gather theres no problem to 300hz. But I may easily choose something else still, it partly depends on what the mid is as well.
Yeah distortion at my listening volume isn't something I want at all, its one reason that I'm upgrading. I would sacrifice some of the off-axis performance if necessary to get enough SPL without nastiness, but I guess I'm starting out for an ideal and we'll see what comprimises I have to make. I suspect I could solve all my requirements with a pair of £200 illuminators, but price is also a compromise I'll have to need to make before I choose to.
Chers
kev
Yeah distortion at my listening volume isn't something I want at all, its one reason that I'm upgrading. I would sacrifice some of the off-axis performance if necessary to get enough SPL without nastiness, but I guess I'm starting out for an ideal and we'll see what comprimises I have to make. I suspect I could solve all my requirements with a pair of £200 illuminators, but price is also a compromise I'll have to need to make before I choose to.
Chers
kev
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