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Old 13th July 2013, 02:51 PM   #1
Radian is offline Radian  Germany
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Default New ideas for K-55 and PD-5V compression drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by pos View Post
Radian, what you are arguing here has nothing to do with what we "discussed" together above, which was only focused on midbass compression driver, and how a 2" Atlas compression driver could be better in this range than a 4" or 8" more modern (and costly, and with far more R&D behind it) compression driver.
No this was the battle field you created. You just brought in the JBL 2482
wich neither is better than the modified K55 and is way more expensive to
obtain. What use was this for the discussion at hand.
The reason I introduced the K55 was that many people who have heard the
WE555 on the big WE horns report excellent sonics in the low region which
tells us that this driver is just very good for this kind of application.
I have yet to see any post that rave about the how excellent the JBL does
in the lower than 250hz region.
Dietmar did not specify the input to the modified K55. What he said is that
the the Line Magnetics 555 was not any better on paper, and that he has
cranked the volume up and he did not percieve any distortion or ill effect.
He has probably heard and set up more big horn systems than most dedicated horn lovers.

Here is a pic of the modified K55. Just a Peavey magnet structure glued
on with a little felt cavity attached to the vent hole.
Before is black and after the mod blue line:
Attached Images
File Type: png K55-mod-1.png (328.2 KB, 606 views)
File Type: png K55 mod vs stock.png (221.6 KB, 583 views)
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Old 13th July 2013, 03:09 PM   #2
Rewind is offline Rewind  Sweden
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Great! What peavey magnet was it?

Last edited by Rewind; 13th July 2013 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 13th July 2013, 03:24 PM   #3
Radian is offline Radian  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3GGG View Post
For the record the Azura is a LeCleach profile horn.
Who cares it does not do much better when it comes beaming.
And by the way, in a comparsion his horn did not come out on top.
The old Klangfilm drivers with the Klangfilm horns sounded to most
people present better. Guess what he had to say about this?
The Klangfilm covered more of the audience and that's why more
people voted for the Klangfilm. This is exacly the thing
we are talking about and he even broght a smaller horn with better
hf behavior to the Festival than the huge Azura.

Klaus
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Old 13th July 2013, 03:27 PM   #4
pos is offline pos  Europe
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Common Radian, I did not "install" any "battlefield" !?
Reread your post #142
Rewind talked about using a 2" (4" diaphragm) driver and you responded that he would "not find another driver who is more suitable for those frequencies" that the 1" (2" diaphragm) Atlas driver, because of its "very low resonant frequency and a max excursion of 1mm".
I just pointed out that 1mm for a 2" diaphragm was a mere 0.25mm for a 4" diaphragm, and (subsequently) that modern drivers should not be dismissed that quick.
Your statemed "You will not find that in other modern drivers because they have not been designed to cover low fequencies.".
But you do not seem to have really considered those bigger 2/4" drivers (on big horns), and especially the option of using larger cone drivers with a phasing plug (and not necessarily modern ones like the CMCD, but also "vintage" ones like black widow 12" driver + phasing plug used in the peavey MB1 midbass horn).

That modified Atlas might well be very good, but saying it is the best there is is probably a bit optimistic, to say the least.
Refusing/ignoring/mocking other opinions like you did is kind of puerile, especially considering that you probably did not try any of those midbass drivers yourself...
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Last edited by pos; 13th July 2013 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 13th July 2013, 03:48 PM   #5
pos is offline pos  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radian View Post
Who cares it does not do much better when it comes beaming.
And by the way, in a comparsion his horn did not come out on top.
The old Klangfilm drivers with the Klangfilm horns sounded to most
people present better. Guess what he had to say about this?
The Klangfilm covered more of the audience and that's why more
people voted for the Klangfilm. This is exacly the thing
we are talking about and he even broght a smaller horn with better
hf behavior to the Festival than the huge Azura.

Klaus
The Klangfilms are tractrix designs (you can even get them from stereo-lab), and in this competition these bested some constant directivity designs.
(by the way it was conjectured by some that the klangfilms won that particular competition because there was a lot of Germans attending, and the comparisons were not blindfold )
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Old 13th July 2013, 03:59 PM   #6
Radian is offline Radian  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pos View Post
Refusing/ignoring/mocking other opinions like you did is kind of puerile, especially considering that you probably did not try any of those midbass drivers yourself...
Wait a minute I am in the posession of a pair JA6681b wich is still better at low
freqencies than probably 95% of current production drivers.
The K55 that Dietmar modified where mine and I sacraficed them to find out
what was possible. I had the Fane Studio 8m in use as early as 1988 or 87
don't remember exactly.....so what do you try to communicate by saying
the above?

Klaus
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Old 13th July 2013, 04:44 PM   #7
pos is offline pos  Europe
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Alright, so you discovered that a $100 driver lousily based on a 90 years old design outperforms all current midbass solutions coming from companies spending big $$ on research for decades? Seriously?
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Old 13th July 2013, 05:06 PM   #8
Rewind is offline Rewind  Sweden
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The average consumer is not knowledgable enough to know that a compression driver driven low can sound nice, especially home consumers. So why would big companies spend money when demand is so low? We have pretty selective taste on this forum.

The JBL PA speakers I mentioned earlier don't use compression drivers below 1.2kHz.
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Old 13th July 2013, 06:25 PM   #9
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There was a time when Altec drivers were used as low as 300hz on a simple 311 horn with a simple passive crossover and this was obviously intended for movie soundtrack reproduction. These were generally phenolic diaphragm 1.4 inch drivers that had little to no upper frequency response about 6Khz at best. Why you are still pursuing this for music production today I just don't follow?

About 1978 I introduced 10" midrange cone driven radial horns for professional audio that was directed at the problems of going from a 15" cone to a compression driver. This went a long way to solving the ever present cone breakup in the upper response of the 15" speakers and the low end honk of the typical compression driver horn combination. I still favor the use of a midrange cone to cover this area rather than trying to force a compression driver to operate this low.

Increasing the excursion of a compression driver running approximately a 10:1 compression ratio really goes against the design of these devices. Increasing the volume of air between the diaphragm and the phase plug goes against all aspects of the design as I have ever been taught and understand. You do not want a large volume of air that can be compressed in this airspace, this just isn't what I would call good practice.
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Old 13th July 2013, 06:31 PM   #10
Radian is offline Radian  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pos View Post
The Klangfilms are tractrix designs
No, that's the common mistake. It is a Kugelwellenhorn
It has a different horn contour wich is close to a tractrix but not quite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pos View Post
....in this competition these bested some constant directivity designs.
Some constant directivity and some regular tractrix and some LeCleach and some other well respected horns.
Will they sound better than a well designed CD like some Seos iterations,
I don't know cause I never heard them but chances are slim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pos View Post
(by the way it was conjectured by some that the klangfilms won that particular competition because there was a lot of Germans attending..-))
And Germans have bad hearing?

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