I have a pair each of the following drivers:
B&G Neo8s
http://meniscusaudio.com/images/NEO8S-spec sheet Rev1.pdf
Faital Pro 12PR300 FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12PR300
Faital Pro 18FH500
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 18FH500
I can go 3 way with these or add a ribbon tweeter for a 4 way.
I have nanodigi from MiniDSP working as digital crossover and for EQ.
Nanodigi feeds Panasonic AV receivers. These operate as power DACs and are 200W per channel class D.
Here are the two options for my next speaker project:
(please help me to choose with pros & cons)
B&G Neo8s
http://meniscusaudio.com/images/NEO8S-spec sheet Rev1.pdf
Faital Pro 12PR300 FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 12PR300
Faital Pro 18FH500
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 18FH500
I can go 3 way with these or add a ribbon tweeter for a 4 way.
I have nanodigi from MiniDSP working as digital crossover and for EQ.
Nanodigi feeds Panasonic AV receivers. These operate as power DACs and are 200W per channel class D.
Here are the two options for my next speaker project:
(please help me to choose with pros & cons)
Option 1:
Similar to stigerik's earlier prototypes, an OB with h or u frame sub and swinging nude MT.
This was my original idea because I am sold to the benefits of OB.
However I tested the nude 12" and 18" yesterday evening and did not like the sound very much.
Either the drivers or my amps or both are clipping.
I tried 18" HP 30, LP from 100 to 200, with 6-14 dB compensation.
And 12" HP from 100-200, LP 1000, with 3-14 dB comp.
Several other DIYers seem to use similar drivers in this set-up with great reported results. Am I missing something?
Similar to stigerik's earlier prototypes, an OB with h or u frame sub and swinging nude MT.
This was my original idea because I am sold to the benefits of OB.
However I tested the nude 12" and 18" yesterday evening and did not like the sound very much.
Either the drivers or my amps or both are clipping.
I tried 18" HP 30, LP from 100 to 200, with 6-14 dB compensation.
And 12" HP from 100-200, LP 1000, with 3-14 dB comp.
Several other DIYers seem to use similar drivers in this set-up with great reported results. Am I missing something?
Option 2:
A large box similar to
Daniel Hertz M1
M1 Speaker
or
JBL 4345
JBL 4345
If I go this route, I will put the 18" in a large separate BR cabinet,
and sit the sealed box MT section on top of it. Sealed box MT will look like a larger version of Greg's (studiotech) new studio monitor in the picture.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?40414-New-studio-monitor-project
A large box similar to
Daniel Hertz M1
M1 Speaker
or
JBL 4345
JBL 4345
If I go this route, I will put the 18" in a large separate BR cabinet,
and sit the sealed box MT section on top of it. Sealed box MT will look like a larger version of Greg's (studiotech) new studio monitor in the picture.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?40414-New-studio-monitor-project
Attachments
If you have a flat panel TV on the wall, a controlled directivity monopole is a family pleaser.
Monopole. Controlled Directivity....... GO! == Sealed woofer + Econowave top.
"One of these things is not like the other." Save the B&G Neo8s for Planar Polar Pattern Partners.
0) Since you plan to use the MiniDSP working as digital crossover and for EQ.
1) Put the Faital Pro 18FH500 into a large'ish SEALED box to get the best group delay, phase control, and room equalization. Dr. Geddes articles on using a few sealed woofers placed around the room might give you ideas for future expansion with additional sealed 18FH500.
2) The controlled directivity and EconoWave threads provide info for what type of waveguide polar pattern, crossed at what frequency will smoothly match the polar response of your Faital Pro 12PR300. BUTT the 12PR300 as close as possible to the waveguide, and carefully select the Xover frequency and slope to have a smooth polar across the full Xover range.
3) Select a 1" compression driver plus waveguide tweeter.
-- I suspect you might select a 1" compression driver with a plastic dome like the DE 250 TN, Faital HF10AK, Beyma CP385Nd.
-- I suspect you might decide to Xover the 12PR300 around 1200Hz to a waveguide with a horizontal polar between 80 and 60 degrees and a 40 degree vertical polar to reduce room floor/ceiling reflections. (The plot I have for the 12PR300 shows 45 degree polar at 1.6Khz) A 90 degree SEOS 15 would probably need to push the Xover down near 1100Hz.
-- I suspect you might decide to use a shallow(< 4") waveguide that physically time aligns the 12PR300 voice coil with the compression driver.
DIPOLE PLAY...
I suspect you would need a large'ish H-frame around the Faital 18FH500 if you want to experiment with dipole bass.
I suspect you will need a modest area, but clever shape baffle to blend a Faital 12PR300 dipole midbass polar to the 18FH500 H-Frame.
I suspect you will need a 4" upper mid dipole on a narrow baffle to carry a smooth dipolar polar pattern above the 12PR300.
I suspect you will need front+rear dome tweeters to maintain the same polar pattern and tone as the other cone drivers
Monopole. Controlled Directivity....... GO! == Sealed woofer + Econowave top.
"One of these things is not like the other." Save the B&G Neo8s for Planar Polar Pattern Partners.
0) Since you plan to use the MiniDSP working as digital crossover and for EQ.
1) Put the Faital Pro 18FH500 into a large'ish SEALED box to get the best group delay, phase control, and room equalization. Dr. Geddes articles on using a few sealed woofers placed around the room might give you ideas for future expansion with additional sealed 18FH500.
2) The controlled directivity and EconoWave threads provide info for what type of waveguide polar pattern, crossed at what frequency will smoothly match the polar response of your Faital Pro 12PR300. BUTT the 12PR300 as close as possible to the waveguide, and carefully select the Xover frequency and slope to have a smooth polar across the full Xover range.
3) Select a 1" compression driver plus waveguide tweeter.
-- I suspect you might select a 1" compression driver with a plastic dome like the DE 250 TN, Faital HF10AK, Beyma CP385Nd.
-- I suspect you might decide to Xover the 12PR300 around 1200Hz to a waveguide with a horizontal polar between 80 and 60 degrees and a 40 degree vertical polar to reduce room floor/ceiling reflections. (The plot I have for the 12PR300 shows 45 degree polar at 1.6Khz) A 90 degree SEOS 15 would probably need to push the Xover down near 1100Hz.
-- I suspect you might decide to use a shallow(< 4") waveguide that physically time aligns the 12PR300 voice coil with the compression driver.
DIPOLE PLAY...
I suspect you would need a large'ish H-frame around the Faital 18FH500 if you want to experiment with dipole bass.
I suspect you will need a modest area, but clever shape baffle to blend a Faital 12PR300 dipole midbass polar to the 18FH500 H-Frame.
I suspect you will need a 4" upper mid dipole on a narrow baffle to carry a smooth dipolar polar pattern above the 12PR300.
I suspect you will need front+rear dome tweeters to maintain the same polar pattern and tone as the other cone drivers
Attached a few examples of short depth horns/waveguides that could physically time align with your 12" after you measure it.
The Daniel Hertz M1 speaker that that you mention is reported to use a 3.8"-3.9" deep 60x40 horn in an effort to have good physical time alignment with the 12" Beyma 12PD80Nd. The Eminence LT250 horn has these specs. Good time alignment is valuable when simple passive Xovers with no delay control are used.
The SEOS 12 waveguide is 3.6"-3.7" deep for 90 x 40 polars, and this shallow depth produces good physical time alignment with 10" and 12" midwoofers. EcoWave designs are well reviewed.
Some designers debate that deeper horns like the H290C @6.6" have better pattern control. There are several deep-frame midbass woofers which time match these deeper horns.
The Daniel Hertz M1 speaker that that you mention is reported to use a 3.8"-3.9" deep 60x40 horn in an effort to have good physical time alignment with the 12" Beyma 12PD80Nd. The Eminence LT250 horn has these specs. Good time alignment is valuable when simple passive Xovers with no delay control are used.
The SEOS 12 waveguide is 3.6"-3.7" deep for 90 x 40 polars, and this shallow depth produces good physical time alignment with 10" and 12" midwoofers. EcoWave designs are well reviewed.
Some designers debate that deeper horns like the H290C @6.6" have better pattern control. There are several deep-frame midbass woofers which time match these deeper horns.
Attachments
Thank you LS for your detailed response.
I used to live in the valley myself (postdoc at Stanford).
I do understand the benefits of a 3 way with a CD-waveguide on top.
However, I have bad tinnitus and can't stand listening to CDs and most domes (esp metal ones) for more than 5 minutes.
I have been using an AMT tweeter for more than 10 years now. That is the sound I like. I like Neo8s a lot too (even more than Neo3). Easy on the ear in the upper mids.
I was very encouraged listening to 8" vintage alnicos on OB. However, I am struggling to get enough bass on OB even with large PA drivers and active DSP.
B&G drivers also seem to be ideal for OB use. But the ones that can crossover low are very expensive (multiple neos or radia series).
So my aim is to build something reasonable around a single Neo8s.
Since I run into OB bass issues, I have been looking into box speakers using Neo8.
There is the Philharmonic series, and the studio monitor Greg is working on (pictured on previous post).
I think I can better those designs by using a more efficient 12"PA midbass, and a large PA subwoofer.
I am really hoping that Greg can give us a detailed comparison of his monitor and OB main system here.
I used to live in the valley myself (postdoc at Stanford).
I do understand the benefits of a 3 way with a CD-waveguide on top.
However, I have bad tinnitus and can't stand listening to CDs and most domes (esp metal ones) for more than 5 minutes.
I have been using an AMT tweeter for more than 10 years now. That is the sound I like. I like Neo8s a lot too (even more than Neo3). Easy on the ear in the upper mids.
I was very encouraged listening to 8" vintage alnicos on OB. However, I am struggling to get enough bass on OB even with large PA drivers and active DSP.
B&G drivers also seem to be ideal for OB use. But the ones that can crossover low are very expensive (multiple neos or radia series).
So my aim is to build something reasonable around a single Neo8s.
Since I run into OB bass issues, I have been looking into box speakers using Neo8.
There is the Philharmonic series, and the studio monitor Greg is working on (pictured on previous post).
I think I can better those designs by using a more efficient 12"PA midbass, and a large PA subwoofer.
I am really hoping that Greg can give us a detailed comparison of his monitor and OB main system here.
Hi Greg,
My limits:
4 ways max
no single driver over $250
no compression driver or dome
(I have listed the drivers I already have in the first post)
Trying to achieve:
very open, dynamic, clean, clear sound even at lowish volume
big 3D soundstage
musical and easy to listen for long period
As I have said, I love the OB sound.
But the EQ required eats into the headroom
and any complex music or a little high volume cause problems.
So I am thinking of trying a very big box and high eff driver combination.
I was hoping to hear from you a detailed comparison of your boxed Neo8 speaker vs your Neo10 OBs.
My limits:
4 ways max
no single driver over $250
no compression driver or dome
(I have listed the drivers I already have in the first post)
Trying to achieve:
very open, dynamic, clean, clear sound even at lowish volume
big 3D soundstage
musical and easy to listen for long period
As I have said, I love the OB sound.
But the EQ required eats into the headroom
and any complex music or a little high volume cause problems.
So I am thinking of trying a very big box and high eff driver combination.
I was hoping to hear from you a detailed comparison of your boxed Neo8 speaker vs your Neo10 OBs.
I'm kind of odd in that I like NOT having to make a rigid box, BUT I also do not like the added room signature a dipole adds to the sound. Others really like the enlarged and slightly diffused image that dipoles produce. So I made a super rigid baffle and then use bonded logic and foam to reduce the rearward radiation on the Neo10. The only real dipole range on my 4 way system is the woofers running from approx. 60-250Hz. Below is a sealed subwooofer and above the Neo10 slowly transitioning to more cardioid.
As to the sound, in a large or well treated room they are pretty similar, especially in the midrange. The Neo8S and Neo10 are my favorite mid drivers out there. To my ears, the OEM 70-20 Raal is a tad sweeter and even more resolving than the 140-15. As you can see from the photo, we had both systems set up in the same, large recording studio well away from any boundaries other than the floor. This room is 30ft * 60ft * 15ft tall. I hate to admit it, but something with the mids and highs of the little monitors throw an even wider, deeper soundstage than my baffles. Both sounded the best they ever had and the presense and impact of my system killed the monitors, but the delicacy and ambiance retrieval of the monitor was tops. I'm thinking of upping the my game and swapping in the amorphous cored 140-15 for a trial just to see if it has as big if an impact as Aleksandar claims.
So, my questions to you are, have you ever heard a good dipole whether it was planar or dynamic? Did you enjoy what it sounded like? Who large is your room? Will you be treating your room?
Why not throw together a quick prototype open baffle or swinging nude tester? See if it works for your tastes. If not, buy more wood and make some cabs. I'd certainly plan on running a true tweeter eventually. Maybe wait for a good deal on the Raal 70-10 to pop up.
I'm thinking 18" no higher than 100-150Hz, the 12" mid up to 1KHz absolute highest and EQ the Neo8 to taste from there. In terms of output, the Neo8 will be the weak link in the chain, but I think for a home environment, you will have more than enough SPL capability. We're running our Neo8 down to 450Hz and the sealed, EQ'd woofer is bottoming out before any audible strain on the mid.
Greg
As to the sound, in a large or well treated room they are pretty similar, especially in the midrange. The Neo8S and Neo10 are my favorite mid drivers out there. To my ears, the OEM 70-20 Raal is a tad sweeter and even more resolving than the 140-15. As you can see from the photo, we had both systems set up in the same, large recording studio well away from any boundaries other than the floor. This room is 30ft * 60ft * 15ft tall. I hate to admit it, but something with the mids and highs of the little monitors throw an even wider, deeper soundstage than my baffles. Both sounded the best they ever had and the presense and impact of my system killed the monitors, but the delicacy and ambiance retrieval of the monitor was tops. I'm thinking of upping the my game and swapping in the amorphous cored 140-15 for a trial just to see if it has as big if an impact as Aleksandar claims.
So, my questions to you are, have you ever heard a good dipole whether it was planar or dynamic? Did you enjoy what it sounded like? Who large is your room? Will you be treating your room?
Why not throw together a quick prototype open baffle or swinging nude tester? See if it works for your tastes. If not, buy more wood and make some cabs. I'd certainly plan on running a true tweeter eventually. Maybe wait for a good deal on the Raal 70-10 to pop up.
I'm thinking 18" no higher than 100-150Hz, the 12" mid up to 1KHz absolute highest and EQ the Neo8 to taste from there. In terms of output, the Neo8 will be the weak link in the chain, but I think for a home environment, you will have more than enough SPL capability. We're running our Neo8 down to 450Hz and the sealed, EQ'd woofer is bottoming out before any audible strain on the mid.
Greg
Attachments
Thank you very much for the excellent post, Greg.
Cool pictures too.
My 12" mid is very similar in TS to the 10" ScanSpeak you have used in your monitor.
Main difference is in Fs (50 vs 23) and efficiency (100 vs 90).
I did buy the wood for the upper box in the weekend. Cheap 18mm spruce ply.
Cabinet will be h40; w75; d44 cm in size.
Housing 12" FaitalPro and Neo8s in separate sealed compartments of 65 and 33 liters respectively.
This box will cross to a large bass reflex sub base at around 80-120hz.
Once this box is up and running, I will experiment with diy waveguide and edge rounding, both made out of acoustic foam.
Adding a ribbon supertweeter on top of this box is also in the book.
Cool pictures too.
My 12" mid is very similar in TS to the 10" ScanSpeak you have used in your monitor.
Main difference is in Fs (50 vs 23) and efficiency (100 vs 90).
I did buy the wood for the upper box in the weekend. Cheap 18mm spruce ply.
Cabinet will be h40; w75; d44 cm in size.
Housing 12" FaitalPro and Neo8s in separate sealed compartments of 65 and 33 liters respectively.
This box will cross to a large bass reflex sub base at around 80-120hz.
Once this box is up and running, I will experiment with diy waveguide and edge rounding, both made out of acoustic foam.
Adding a ribbon supertweeter on top of this box is also in the book.
Greg,
Here is my response to your Qs:
I have built a few OB prototypes using vintage alnico Seas drivers.
These sound sweet in the mid freq at low-medium volume.
I have also tested some PA drivers on the nude.
However, I haven't heard a top class OB speaker.
Orion and Nao type OBs have too much EQ and cone movement for my liking (I don't like how those modern hifi drivers sound).
My ideal OB would be a B&G linesource (like yours or Stig's).
But I do not have the cash or room for such a system.
I live in a rental flat in London. And I move quite often.
So placement is critical for me.
For me, even a fridge size direct radiator is more practical than an OB.
Here is my response to your Qs:
I have built a few OB prototypes using vintage alnico Seas drivers.
These sound sweet in the mid freq at low-medium volume.
I have also tested some PA drivers on the nude.
However, I haven't heard a top class OB speaker.
Orion and Nao type OBs have too much EQ and cone movement for my liking (I don't like how those modern hifi drivers sound).
My ideal OB would be a B&G linesource (like yours or Stig's).
But I do not have the cash or room for such a system.
I live in a rental flat in London. And I move quite often.
So placement is critical for me.
For me, even a fridge size direct radiator is more practical than an OB.
Are you boosting the OB cancellation loss (acoustic short-circuit), or cutting above that frequency (ie: a shelving filter)? If the former - that might be why it's clipping. If the latter - then nevermind! You usually want to cut with EQ - never boost as that eats away at headroom/dynamic range...
cheers,
-Tal
Tal;
I knew I was missing sth. Indeed, I was boosting the OB loss. Does that cause some sort of digital overload? If so why is it there on the DSP software?
I will try the opposite, when I have a chance.
However, I am quite committed to my massive box built these days.
I did cut the baffles in the weekend.
I am fully in love with the vintage JBL studio monitor look.
It will be an homage to JBL 4345.
I knew I was missing sth. Indeed, I was boosting the OB loss. Does that cause some sort of digital overload? If so why is it there on the DSP software?
I will try the opposite, when I have a chance.
However, I am quite committed to my massive box built these days.
I did cut the baffles in the weekend.
I am fully in love with the vintage JBL studio monitor look.
It will be an homage to JBL 4345.
Attachments
I was planning a nude dipole like these:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/175745-three-way-nude-swinging-dipole-thread.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/219344-4-way-dipolar-disorder.html
before running into DSP clipping.
What now? Am I going to have to throw away all that wood and insulation and what not?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/175745-three-way-nude-swinging-dipole-thread.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/219344-4-way-dipolar-disorder.html
before running into DSP clipping.
What now? Am I going to have to throw away all that wood and insulation and what not?
Clipping your DSP and still not getting enough output? You're either going for concert PA levels or something is not adjusted optimally. Or you've boosted the low end of the woofer far too much. Can you run through your set-up once more?
Greg
True, it was not the drivers running out of excursion (the cones were not moving much).
It was probably the DSP. Remember, I am using a fully digital DSP. So no opamps or like.
Last night I tried lowering the higher end instead of boosting the lower end and it sounded much better. However these large PA drivers still make some unhappy noises when driven nude with EQ.
It was probably the DSP. Remember, I am using a fully digital DSP. So no opamps or like.
Last night I tried lowering the higher end instead of boosting the lower end and it sounded much better. However these large PA drivers still make some unhappy noises when driven nude with EQ.
So you're not applying any boost at all? When you cut the high freq to match the low you still have to raise the level of that driver to match the rest of the system, or cut your higher freq units to match the bass. You said you are using Panasonic power DACs, which I assume are receivers? If you are raising the level here, I wonder if you are clipping the DAC outputs for your woofers in the receiver. Dipole woofers can take a lot of power.
I don't really see much benefit in running the bass drivers nude, especially with the low Q woofers you are using. Depending on how low you want these to go, you would need to shelf down the high freq quite a bit to get any appreciable bass output. An h-frame or at least a large baffle will help quite a bit. A hi-pass filter at or below your low corner will help protect against over excursion as well.
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