If 10" is the limit perhaps the Scan 25W Classic is a better choice - has excellent tembre, low distortion - low inductance motor and reaches down to 20Hz. You`ll need to use at least three per side to get good bass fundament and they`re good up to 60Hz. 8" fullrange shoudl work that low on paper but in practice won`t produce much below 150Hz ( unless in a horn ). This can be done with a bigger fullrange, 10" for example. Rullit has interesting designs, they appear on ebay from time to time in the 2-3k eur range.
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Before 6000 is still pretty wide open.
In terms of distortion, the 3rd and 5th are what you want to keep as low as possible. But distortion shouldn't be your only consideration for your xo point. See the attached Neo10 directivity. Can't claim to be an expert, but putting those 2 things together, I probably wouldn't go higher than 3000Hz. Maybe even a bit lower than that.
Attachments
I'm curious if you have bothered to draw up a proportional Sketch of this project?
Based on the concept in the original Post, my initial sketch came up with 52.5" tall and roughly 12.5" wide. And though I didn't calculate it, substantially deep to be able to accommodate TWO 10" Sub-Bass/Low-Bass Drivers.
In my very rough sketch I included two 10" low-Bass, one 8" Mid-Bass, one 5" Mid and a standard Dome type tweeter.
The Vas on the original TC Sound Epic DVC 10" drivers is 1.75 Ft³. So, it would be reasonably fair to say we need a cabinet in the range of 2 ft³ to 3 ft³ internal volume. Then using the other dimensions and an estimate of the Drivers physical volume, I'm guessing 5ft³ total per cabinet. Then best guess the cabinet depth would have to be about 15".
Does that sound like a workable combination? Speakers nearly 53" tall sitting on a base 12.5" x 15"? Though if that seems a bit small, some type of outrigger stand could be made to effectively widen the base.
The original TC Sound Epic are Dual 2 ohm Voice coils. With the coils in series, that is 4 ohms. With two speakers, you probably either have to drive each low bass with a separate amp or you have to wire them in Series.
Then we have to ask if a single 8" Mid-Bass is enough to keep up with TWIN 10" Subwoofers?
One last point, though I don't know how it comes into your design, the maximum power bandwidth of Orchestral Music is in the 250hz to 500hz range (centered on 355hz). Above and below that band, power drops off substantially.
See attached Graphic -
Next, do I understand correctly, you plan to have a multi-amps system with Active Crossovers? Or is that no longer the plan?
If it is the plan, you need to decide if you will drive the Low-Bass as a single entity, or if you will drive the Low-Bass individually. That is going to take 5 Stereo amp, and probably 4 Active Crossovers.
I think you should start with a definition of the design goals.
They seem to be -
- Deep Bass
- High Peak Volume
But it is up to you to tell us, not for us to guess. Plus any other aspect of the design concept. For example, Power amps and Active Crossover, cabinet style and shape, and any other relevant details or circumstances.
Then I think you should draw a sketch or sketches of how the design concept could be implemented. The sketch I did was a simply Tower Box speaker. You may have other ideas.
Next, you need to consider your room. If this is the bedroom of a teenager, then TWIN Subwoofer in EACH speaker is going to be a bit overboard. I think even in the typical Home Cinema room, FOUR Low-Bass Subwoofers is a bit much. Now if you have a mansion, and have an near auditorium size Home Cinema room, then perhaps that configuration or similar is workable.
Part of my point is that every one seems to be concentrating on a list of drivers without considering whether the combination is workable in and of itself, and whether the combination is workable in the specific circumstances it will be placed in.
Lastly, considering the substantial money being spend, one assume serious considerations have been given to room acoustics, and acoustic treatments.
I will acknowledge that pretty much everyone who responded is more knowledgeable than I am in speaker design. But even with that said, I think there are some important steps that are being overlooked in the conceptual design of this system. Thing regarding secondary aspect like to size of the room the system is going in. The likelihood of that specific list of components to accomplish the presumed goal. And, even if we come up with a stellar design, will that design function its best in the room it will be placed in (room acoustic consideration)?
Again, others are far more knowledgeable than I am, but to have a vague idea of the design concept, and jump in listing an assortment of drivers, seems to have skipped a few steps in my mind.
Though I will leave it to the wise to sort these things out.
Just a few humble thoughts.
Steve
Based on the concept in the original Post, my initial sketch came up with 52.5" tall and roughly 12.5" wide. And though I didn't calculate it, substantially deep to be able to accommodate TWO 10" Sub-Bass/Low-Bass Drivers.
In my very rough sketch I included two 10" low-Bass, one 8" Mid-Bass, one 5" Mid and a standard Dome type tweeter.
The Vas on the original TC Sound Epic DVC 10" drivers is 1.75 Ft³. So, it would be reasonably fair to say we need a cabinet in the range of 2 ft³ to 3 ft³ internal volume. Then using the other dimensions and an estimate of the Drivers physical volume, I'm guessing 5ft³ total per cabinet. Then best guess the cabinet depth would have to be about 15".
Does that sound like a workable combination? Speakers nearly 53" tall sitting on a base 12.5" x 15"? Though if that seems a bit small, some type of outrigger stand could be made to effectively widen the base.
The original TC Sound Epic are Dual 2 ohm Voice coils. With the coils in series, that is 4 ohms. With two speakers, you probably either have to drive each low bass with a separate amp or you have to wire them in Series.
Then we have to ask if a single 8" Mid-Bass is enough to keep up with TWIN 10" Subwoofers?
One last point, though I don't know how it comes into your design, the maximum power bandwidth of Orchestral Music is in the 250hz to 500hz range (centered on 355hz). Above and below that band, power drops off substantially.
See attached Graphic -
Next, do I understand correctly, you plan to have a multi-amps system with Active Crossovers? Or is that no longer the plan?
If it is the plan, you need to decide if you will drive the Low-Bass as a single entity, or if you will drive the Low-Bass individually. That is going to take 5 Stereo amp, and probably 4 Active Crossovers.
I think you should start with a definition of the design goals.
They seem to be -
- Deep Bass
- High Peak Volume
But it is up to you to tell us, not for us to guess. Plus any other aspect of the design concept. For example, Power amps and Active Crossover, cabinet style and shape, and any other relevant details or circumstances.
Then I think you should draw a sketch or sketches of how the design concept could be implemented. The sketch I did was a simply Tower Box speaker. You may have other ideas.
Next, you need to consider your room. If this is the bedroom of a teenager, then TWIN Subwoofer in EACH speaker is going to be a bit overboard. I think even in the typical Home Cinema room, FOUR Low-Bass Subwoofers is a bit much. Now if you have a mansion, and have an near auditorium size Home Cinema room, then perhaps that configuration or similar is workable.
Part of my point is that every one seems to be concentrating on a list of drivers without considering whether the combination is workable in and of itself, and whether the combination is workable in the specific circumstances it will be placed in.
Lastly, considering the substantial money being spend, one assume serious considerations have been given to room acoustics, and acoustic treatments.
I will acknowledge that pretty much everyone who responded is more knowledgeable than I am in speaker design. But even with that said, I think there are some important steps that are being overlooked in the conceptual design of this system. Thing regarding secondary aspect like to size of the room the system is going in. The likelihood of that specific list of components to accomplish the presumed goal. And, even if we come up with a stellar design, will that design function its best in the room it will be placed in (room acoustic consideration)?
Again, others are far more knowledgeable than I am, but to have a vague idea of the design concept, and jump in listing an assortment of drivers, seems to have skipped a few steps in my mind.
Though I will leave it to the wise to sort these things out.
Just a few humble thoughts.
Steve
Attachments
Steve, if accurate music reproduction and dynamics is the goal, he needs not twin but even more low frequency drivers ( if they`re 10 inch ). The more the drivers, the lower the stroke hence the lower the distortion. Many people underestimate the lower octave but this is what gives you the volume and lifelike feelings. Its still better to go for 18" as suggested above or dual 15".
In response, I will quote a magazine writer -
"Bass, like sex, is something young men desire to excess."
There are still a lot of considerations that are being left out of the discussion. First, is the design concept realistic. Both generally realistic, and realistic within the so far unstated circumstance.
For movie tracks certainly deep bass is significant. But functionally there are no tones or notes below about 28hz. I didn't say no sounds, I said no recognizable tones or notes. In movie sound tracks most ultra-low frequency content does not come as a note or tone, it comes as a shock wave.
And my point in my original statement was, especially with gigantic speakers as are those being considered, you do not want to put these in a broom closet. To make functional use of the extreme dynamics, the deep deep bass, and the high high volume, these will work only with difficulty in a normal sized room
With this much potential money sunk into the system, the room and the room acoustics become as much a part of the speaker as the speaker itself.
So, I'm saying we need to consider everything in context. Yes in our fantasies, we all want demolition capable bass. In our fantasies, we want massive volume. But, in practice, when it comes to laying down large piles of money, we have to temper fantasy with reality.
As a side note my modest system is only rated down to 28hz at -6dB (2x 8" each + 1x 12" each), and I have felt the upholstery on my chair flex under the impact of bass. And I can reach peaks of nicely over 100dB without excess turn of the Volume control. My system is a Stereo with no Subwoofer; keep that in mind.
So, I'm looking for a clear definition and statement of the design concept and goals. That's been somewhat covered but mostly piecemeal. Then a description of the circumstances within which this speakers system will be used. Then perhaps a nice drafted sketch of the concept.
The place to start on a design concept, is not with a list of drivers, but with the concept, circumstances, goals, and objectives plus limitations. Secondly with some sense of the physical beast. In short, a design concept drawings.
Look at how ShinOBIWAN (forum member who design some very elaborate and expensive speakers) designs speakers. He seems to first have a visual concept. He imagine what the speaker will look like, then he drafts some very elaborate 3D models. Once he has the physical concept, he starts imagining how will will make it reality; physically, what will it take. Then once that is ironed out, he works on the intricate details of the cabinet design.
Take this discussion thread as an example of one of ShinOBIWAN's design processes.
ShinOBIWAN - Apollo Design & Construction Diary
The first page of this thread alone is a huge insight into the design process. And the Discussion goes on for 67 Pages.
So, is this a $15,000 fantasy, or are we going to identify the design concept, verify the validity of the proposed design to meet the stated goal, then work out the physical reality of it, then work out the electrical and component reality, or are we just going to keep listing Drivers?
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the design to the extent that I understand it, but I don't see these speaker working well in the average room. Now, the OP might have an above average room. That's fine. It is not up to me to make these decision, it is up to him, but you don't want to sink $15,000 into a half thought out project. With that kind of money at stake, you want to plan this carefully so that you are sure you money is applied wisely and effectively in the end. Simply buying a pile of great drivers, does not assure you of a great speaker system.
Because I don't know much, I definitely know how much I don't know, speaker design is an infinitely complex process. If you are starting from scratch, then you better work long and hard to make sure the result is right, especially when you are spending this kind of money.
That's all I'm saying.
Steve/bluewizard
"Bass, like sex, is something young men desire to excess."
There are still a lot of considerations that are being left out of the discussion. First, is the design concept realistic. Both generally realistic, and realistic within the so far unstated circumstance.
For movie tracks certainly deep bass is significant. But functionally there are no tones or notes below about 28hz. I didn't say no sounds, I said no recognizable tones or notes. In movie sound tracks most ultra-low frequency content does not come as a note or tone, it comes as a shock wave.
And my point in my original statement was, especially with gigantic speakers as are those being considered, you do not want to put these in a broom closet. To make functional use of the extreme dynamics, the deep deep bass, and the high high volume, these will work only with difficulty in a normal sized room
With this much potential money sunk into the system, the room and the room acoustics become as much a part of the speaker as the speaker itself.
So, I'm saying we need to consider everything in context. Yes in our fantasies, we all want demolition capable bass. In our fantasies, we want massive volume. But, in practice, when it comes to laying down large piles of money, we have to temper fantasy with reality.
As a side note my modest system is only rated down to 28hz at -6dB (2x 8" each + 1x 12" each), and I have felt the upholstery on my chair flex under the impact of bass. And I can reach peaks of nicely over 100dB without excess turn of the Volume control. My system is a Stereo with no Subwoofer; keep that in mind.
So, I'm looking for a clear definition and statement of the design concept and goals. That's been somewhat covered but mostly piecemeal. Then a description of the circumstances within which this speakers system will be used. Then perhaps a nice drafted sketch of the concept.
The place to start on a design concept, is not with a list of drivers, but with the concept, circumstances, goals, and objectives plus limitations. Secondly with some sense of the physical beast. In short, a design concept drawings.
Look at how ShinOBIWAN (forum member who design some very elaborate and expensive speakers) designs speakers. He seems to first have a visual concept. He imagine what the speaker will look like, then he drafts some very elaborate 3D models. Once he has the physical concept, he starts imagining how will will make it reality; physically, what will it take. Then once that is ironed out, he works on the intricate details of the cabinet design.
Take this discussion thread as an example of one of ShinOBIWAN's design processes.
ShinOBIWAN - Apollo Design & Construction Diary
The first page of this thread alone is a huge insight into the design process. And the Discussion goes on for 67 Pages.
So, is this a $15,000 fantasy, or are we going to identify the design concept, verify the validity of the proposed design to meet the stated goal, then work out the physical reality of it, then work out the electrical and component reality, or are we just going to keep listing Drivers?
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the design to the extent that I understand it, but I don't see these speaker working well in the average room. Now, the OP might have an above average room. That's fine. It is not up to me to make these decision, it is up to him, but you don't want to sink $15,000 into a half thought out project. With that kind of money at stake, you want to plan this carefully so that you are sure you money is applied wisely and effectively in the end. Simply buying a pile of great drivers, does not assure you of a great speaker system.
Because I don't know much, I definitely know how much I don't know, speaker design is an infinitely complex process. If you are starting from scratch, then you better work long and hard to make sure the result is right, especially when you are spending this kind of money.
That's all I'm saying.
Steve/bluewizard
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As to a Drafted Sketch of the design, that need not be as complex and detailed at ShinOBIWAN who if I recall correctly, is a professional graphic artist.
Here is an example of a design concept of my own, vaguely similar to that under discussion. This is hand drafted on paper, then the outlines were cleaned up in a photo editing program and the text was added -
But that is were I started. I had this idea of tapered trapezoid boxes, two separate cabinets, in either at 3.5-way (Left) design or a 3-way (Right) design. Part of the design concept was to use very low Bass/Mid crossovers. Though upon analyzing it, that goal became unnecessary; not impossible, just unnecessary. Then I work out what drivers would reasonably fit the design, buy budget, and my goals. When I was working with the low Bass/Mid crossover idea, I chose Dayton 4" Reference full range drivers as the Mids. Being full range, they allowed any crossover on both the low and high end. The design concept drove the speaker choice.
Now maybe I'm way off base, maybe you just want people to suggest nice high end driver from which to build nice speaker. If so, then ignore me, the discussion is on the right track.
But, it you are trying to design the speakers, then there are many more details and many more considerations to be discussed.
I'm not trying to derail the discussion, and I admit the limits of my knowledge. But, if we are trying to come up with an actually workable design, a whole lot of things that need to be known are not being mentioned.
If you feel you are already on the right track, then just ignore me. But I personally feel like a lot of relevant information is missing from the discussion.
The answer can never be better than the question.
I'll step back and let those wiser than me take it from here.
Steve/bluewizard
Here is an example of a design concept of my own, vaguely similar to that under discussion. This is hand drafted on paper, then the outlines were cleaned up in a photo editing program and the text was added -
But that is were I started. I had this idea of tapered trapezoid boxes, two separate cabinets, in either at 3.5-way (Left) design or a 3-way (Right) design. Part of the design concept was to use very low Bass/Mid crossovers. Though upon analyzing it, that goal became unnecessary; not impossible, just unnecessary. Then I work out what drivers would reasonably fit the design, buy budget, and my goals. When I was working with the low Bass/Mid crossover idea, I chose Dayton 4" Reference full range drivers as the Mids. Being full range, they allowed any crossover on both the low and high end. The design concept drove the speaker choice.
Now maybe I'm way off base, maybe you just want people to suggest nice high end driver from which to build nice speaker. If so, then ignore me, the discussion is on the right track.
But, it you are trying to design the speakers, then there are many more details and many more considerations to be discussed.
I'm not trying to derail the discussion, and I admit the limits of my knowledge. But, if we are trying to come up with an actually workable design, a whole lot of things that need to be known are not being mentioned.
If you feel you are already on the right track, then just ignore me. But I personally feel like a lot of relevant information is missing from the discussion.
The answer can never be better than the question.
I'll step back and let those wiser than me take it from here.
Steve/bluewizard
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3rd and 5th start to get ugly over 2500. Beaming aside, 6k would sound pretty ugly.
Though I would not presume to tell you want you want. It is possible that one of the ShinOBIWAN design concept are exactly what you are looking for.
Take a look at this -
Keep in mind, he goes through many variations, before he comes to the final product. He might be willing to give you copies of his design, perhaps for a fee, I don't know. It wouldn't hurt to ask. That way, you are building a known and proven design.
And yes ... I'm well aware that I can get long-winded at times.
Steve/bluewizard
Take a look at this -
Keep in mind, he goes through many variations, before he comes to the final product. He might be willing to give you copies of his design, perhaps for a fee, I don't know. It wouldn't hurt to ask. That way, you are building a known and proven design.
And yes ... I'm well aware that I can get long-winded at times.
Steve/bluewizard
Thanks for the responses, sorry I've neglected this for so long been working 16 hours a day then just sleeping at the weekend.
I started from the point of view of wanting to build something similar but different to the b and w 800d/n etc.
I wanted a smaller footprint/more classic design (simply a rectangular cuboid with sharp edges), but more bass/cleaner at high volumes (no easy task I know).
I thought that midbass that provies impact (not sure if I have the definition slightly wrong but the bass that kinda "hits" you) 80-320hz would be so much cleaner/better in transient response if it didn't have to do low/sub bass aswell.
So then I thought simply use two high powered subwoofers in a small sealed would provide enough 25-80hz output, the enclosure doesn't need to be big either for them, 1cubic foot is fine for the epic 10.
Then a separate high efficiency woofer/pair to cover above that. I was potentially thinking a pro driver with a relatively large xmax eg 7mm. a pair in room 10 inches will do 120db at 100 hz around 7mm. This was the part I had the most problems thinking of a driver for.
Above that I figured a ribbon tweeter because of their transparency.
Finally the mid I'm open to suggestions, I saw the fr/distortion/efficiency from the 800d mid, it was awesome, would it be possible to buy one?? It's natural efficiently is 95-96 db, obviously down-rated in the crossover in the actual speaker. If not again suggestions are more than welcome.
As for size the two subs will take up around 22-25 inches, the mid bass 12ish? then 5 inch mid, 5 inches for the tweeter?
not exactly huge at roughly 45inches tall.
In order to improve my build skills I will build a cheap passive speaker. This speaker here is the end goal. If you think that now it's not a good idea then I'm happy to consider other designs. Some of the designs by ShinOBIWAN looked awesome.
Thanks so much so far.
I started from the point of view of wanting to build something similar but different to the b and w 800d/n etc.
I wanted a smaller footprint/more classic design (simply a rectangular cuboid with sharp edges), but more bass/cleaner at high volumes (no easy task I know).
I thought that midbass that provies impact (not sure if I have the definition slightly wrong but the bass that kinda "hits" you) 80-320hz would be so much cleaner/better in transient response if it didn't have to do low/sub bass aswell.
So then I thought simply use two high powered subwoofers in a small sealed would provide enough 25-80hz output, the enclosure doesn't need to be big either for them, 1cubic foot is fine for the epic 10.
Then a separate high efficiency woofer/pair to cover above that. I was potentially thinking a pro driver with a relatively large xmax eg 7mm. a pair in room 10 inches will do 120db at 100 hz around 7mm. This was the part I had the most problems thinking of a driver for.
Above that I figured a ribbon tweeter because of their transparency.
Finally the mid I'm open to suggestions, I saw the fr/distortion/efficiency from the 800d mid, it was awesome, would it be possible to buy one?? It's natural efficiently is 95-96 db, obviously down-rated in the crossover in the actual speaker. If not again suggestions are more than welcome.
As for size the two subs will take up around 22-25 inches, the mid bass 12ish? then 5 inch mid, 5 inches for the tweeter?
not exactly huge at roughly 45inches tall.
In order to improve my build skills I will build a cheap passive speaker. This speaker here is the end goal. If you think that now it's not a good idea then I'm happy to consider other designs. Some of the designs by ShinOBIWAN looked awesome.
Thanks so much so far.
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